Lowering the shoulder

[Adam]

Originally posted by WooPigSooie
You guys are talking about displacement being the quantifying factor for calling a PC, which I dont agree with. 6'7 250 lb 5-man guarding a 5'10 160 lb guard on a fast break. Guard lowers the shoulder yet there is no displacement. We penalize the 6'7 guy for being an ox? That is essentially what I am getting out of this.....I'm gonna call it. The guard did a non-basketball movement in an ATTEMPT to gain an advantage. Tweet....PC foul

There's no rule against "attempting" to gain an advantage. Conversely, there's no rule allowing the advantage if the contact is accidental. "Intent" is irrelevant here.
If your 6'7" defender isn't moved, injured, or impeded, you don't have a foul. By rule, you shouldn't call this.
He's not being penalized for being an ox, because he wasn't disadvantaged. In fact, I'll bet the 5'10 guard will think twice about doing it again after he picks himself up off the floor a couple of times.

[bbcoach7]

Thought I'd add this to the discussion. At the lowest ages I coach (about 9), we sometimes see on ball defense with an arm extended in front of and often contacting the dribbler. If these players are not being taught correct on ball defense by there coach, my feeling is a good Ref can accomplish the lesson with his whistle. Sometimes my small guard can't compete. Thw worst is basically an arm draped across the dribbler while running/sliding along side. More prevalent when defender is significantly taller. I've concluded that the reason some guards develop the early habit of getting the leading arm/hand up and pushing on the defender's extended arm is because the Refs don't call that draped arm a "reach" often enough, so the dribbler learns to protect him/her self.

Then I go watch the HS games, and if someone tries to defend on ball like I described above, "tweeet." But they let it go a lot in Jr High games. I tell my players to go right thru that arm extended in front of them.

We actually drill it. I use a small football blocking pad and use it with lay up lines so they get used to putting their shoulder into resistance off the dribble. We teach the dribbler to respect the defenders foot position, but if the def sticks an arm out in front of you and makes contact- lower the shoulder and go right thru the arm.

I know coaches who teach their players to put the shoulder into the center of the defenders chest in the same situation (legal guarding position not established). I don't teach that tactic, I think I can accomplish the same thing (level the defenders unfair advantage) just as well with my tactic and I'm less likely to pick up the PC call on my dribbler my way.

[Adam]

Originally posted by bbcoach7
Thought I'd add this to the discussion. At the lowest ages I coach (about 9), we sometimes see on ball defense with an arm extended in front of and often contacting the dribbler. If these players are not being taught correct on ball defense by there coach, my feeling is a good Ref can accomplish the lesson with his whistle. Sometimes my small guard can't compete. Thw worst is basically an arm draped across the dribbler while running/sliding along side. More prevalent when defender is significantly taller. I've concluded that the reason some guards develop the early habit of getting the leading arm/hand up and pushing on the defender's extended arm is because the Refs don't call that draped arm a "reach" often enough, so the dribbler learns to protect him/her self.

Help me here, coach, as I obviously can't see the play. Where's the foul? Are you seeing hand checks not get called? The draped arm sounds like it might be a hold, but when you say "reach" I'm having a hard time picturing contact.

[refTN]

Originally posted by WooPigSooie
You guys are talking about displacement being the quantifying factor for calling a PC, which I dont agree with. 6'7 250 lb 5-man guarding a 5'10 160 lb guard on a fast break. Guard lowers the shoulder yet there is no displacement. We penalize the 6'7 guy for being an ox? That is essentially what I am getting out of this.....I'm gonna call it. The guard did a non-basketball movement in an ATTEMPT to gain an advantage. Tweet....PC foul

If you call that play an offensive foul, good luck making it out of there. Even the opposing fans would probably boo you. You are just blowing a game interrupting play where the offensive player created all the contact and in doing so he tried to gain an advantage(since we are throwing this word around everywhere) and did not accomplish gaining that advantage. This is a play on anywhere and everywhere. Like someone else said earlier, if you don't blow this, that kid is going to get up off the ground and think twice about doing it. Save the 5'10" kid a foul, and use some common sense application so you don't get yourself and your partners killed.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

Help me here, coach, as I obviously can't see the play. Where's the foul? Are you seeing hand checks not get called? The draped arm sounds like it might be a hold, but when you say "reach" I'm having a hard time picturing contact.

Coach, just for the record, you do realize that reaching isn't in and of itself a foul? There has to be illegal contact before there's any foul at all. If the defender is reaching and creates contact, then it should be called. If the defender is reaching and not affecting the play in any way, hey, no foul. That's why Snax is confused.

[Adam]

To add to what Juulie said, even if a player reaches and creates some contact, it might not be a foul. Most of this contact is incidental. Until that contact causes an advantage, it's legal.
Now, holding is quite another thing, so if that's what you're talking about....

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

As I said, depending on the situation and the actions of the offensive player, I can see situations where shoulder to torso contact could be PC even without LGP.
[/B]

Could you please give me an example then of a situation where dribbler shoulder to defender torso contact could be a PC foul when the defender doesn't have LGP? Could you also please cite a rule to back up your call? [/B][/QUOTE]
JR, there is only one that I can think of:

A1 grabs an offensive rebound on the block. B1 was standing between A1 and the basket and facing the basket when the ball went over his head and A1 got the rebound. B1 doesn't react quickly to A1 getting the rebound and still has his back to A1 when A1 makes a power dribble and move to the basket in an attempt to score. A1 sticks his shoulder into the back of B1's torso and knocks him to the floor while scoring a goal.
Obviously the correct call is a player control foul. B1 never had LGP, but he did have a legal position on the floor. He is entitled to that.

Rule Refs to back this:
4-23-1 "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."
and the Simplified and Illustrated diagram on the top of page 27.
Plus there used to be a case play in which B1 falls to the floor in the lane and dribbler A1 trips over him. The ruling stated that it was not a foul on B1 as he was entitled to any spot on the floor even if he was momentarily lying down on it. I can't locate that play right now though.

However, I agree with JR that 99.9% of the time a block/charge decision depends upon LGP of the defender. All of the other examples that wwcfoa43 and refTN give are PC fouls but they are not charging fouls. They are examples of illegal use of hands/arms/feet. What refTN is failing to grasp is that in his examples, the decision is not between a block or a charge, but hinges upon noticing some illegal action that the player with the ball did prior to any block/charge situation taking place. It just happens to be a PC foul because that player had the ball. To prove this remove the ball from the play and have the two players do the same actions. Would you call a charge? No. You would call a push or illegal use of hands/...

[Raymond]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
JR, there is only one that I can think of:

A1 grabs an offensive rebound on the block. B1 was standing between A1 and the basket and facing the basket when the ball went over his head and A1 got the rebound. B1 doesn't react quickly to A1 getting the rebound and still has his back to A1 when A1 makes a power dribble and move to the basket in an attempt to score. A1 sticks his shoulder into the back of B1's torso and knocks him to the floor while scoring a goal.
Obviously the correct call is a player control foul. B1 never had LGP, but he did have a legal position on the floor. He is entitled to that.

Rule Refs to back this:
4-23-1 "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."
and the Simplified and Illustrated diagram on the top of page 27.
Plus there used to be a case play in which B1 falls to the floor in the lane and dribbler A1 trips over him. The ruling stated that it was not a foul on B1 as he was entitled to any spot on the floor even if he was momentarily lying down on it. I can't locate that play right now though.

However, I agree with JR that 99.9% of the time a block/charge decision depends upon LGP of the defender. All of the other examples that wwcfoa43 and refTN give are PC fouls but they are not charging fouls. They are examples of illegal use of hands/arms/feet. What refTN is failing to grasp is that in his examples, the decision is not between a block or a charge, but hinges upon noticing some illegal action that the player with the ball did prior to any block/charge situation taking place. It just happens to be a PC foul because that player had the ball. To prove this remove the ball from the play and have the two players do the same actions. Would you call a charge? No. You would call a push or illegal use of hands/...

NCAA Rule 4 Section 33 A.R. 23. B1 slips to the floor in the free-throw lane. A1 (with his/her back to B1, who is
prone) receives a pass, turns and, in his or her attempt to drive to the basket, trips and
falls over B1. RULING: Foul on B1, who has taken an illegal defensive position.

For Jurassic Referee from earlier post
Appendix III Section 12 (Women's Legal Defense) c. If contact occurs by the dribbler moving forward at a faster pace
than the legal defender is retreating or if the dribbler drops her
lead shoulder or uses her forearm to push into the defender, a
player-control foul shall be called on the dribbler.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BadNewsRef
[/B]

_ For Jurassic Referee from earlier post[/b]
Appendix III Section 12 (Women's Legal Defense) c. If contact occurs by the dribbler moving forward at a faster pace
than the legal defender is retreating or if the dribbler drops her
lead shoulder or uses her forearm to push into the defender, a
player-control foul shall be called on the dribbler. [/B][/QUOTE]For BadNewsRef:

My question was "Could you please give me an example then of a situation where dribbler shoulder to defender torso contact could be a PC foul when the defender DOESN'T have LGP?

The answer you give above refers to a "legal defender"- i.e. a defender with LGP. I'm still waiting for a reference from you referring to an "illegal defender"- i.e. a defender who doesn't have LGP.

[FrankHtown]

If your 6'7" defender isn't moved, injured, or impeded, you don't have a foul. By rule, you shouldn't call this.
-----
I thought the two golden rules were: 1)Protect the shooter, 2) Reward good defense. If the dribbler initiates the contact, why penalize the defense? Give the defense the ball because of the PC foul.

[Raymond]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
My question was "Could you please give me an example then of a situation where dribbler shoulder to defender torso contact could be a PC foul when the defender DOESN'T have LGP?

The answer you give above refers to a "legal defender"- i.e. a defender with LGP. I'm still waiting for a reference from you referring to an "illegal defender"- i.e. a defender who doesn't have LGP.

That's the closest I could find. That's the only reference in the entire NCAA rulebook that specifically addresses a ball-handler's use of the shoulder.

[Adam]

Originally posted by FrankHtown

If your 6'7" defender isn't moved, injured, or impeded, you don't have a foul. By rule, you shouldn't call this.
-----
I thought the two golden rules were: 1)Protect the shooter, 2) Reward good defense. If the dribbler initiates the contact, why penalize the defense? Give the defense the ball because of the PC foul.

I don't have to reward good defense, the defense rewarded himself by not giving ground. He doesn't need me, because there was no advantage gained.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BadNewsRef

That's the closest I could find. That's the only reference in the entire NCAA rulebook that specifically addresses a ball-handler's use of the shoulder.

Well, the "closest you could find" isn't relevant at all to the statement I made.

I said "Usually, with shoulder contact to the defender's torso, if LGP is there, it's a charge. If LGP isn't there, it's a block". I'll stick with that one.

A dribbler lowering the shoulder into a defender with LGP is usually a PC foul under all rulesets. That NCAA Womens rules reference is no different than NFHS or NCAA Mens.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BadNewsRef

NCAA Rule 4 Section 33 A.R. 23. B1 slips to the floor in the free-throw lane. A1 (with his/her back to B1, who is
prone) receives a pass, turns and, in his or her attempt to drive to the basket, trips and
falls over B1. RULING: Foul on B1, who has taken an illegal defensive position.

Just a comment from me on this, because Nevada is probably out doing what Nevada does and isn't available......I don't think that Nevada is allowed out in the sunlight anyway. He's supposed to stay in the crypt.

The reference that Nevada made was an an example where he thought there was a charge call with shoulder-to-torso contact on a player without LGP. The example that you cited does not involve shoulder to torso contact in any way. Apples and oranges iow, and not what we were discussing.

[refTN]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Could you please give me an example then of a situation where dribbler shoulder to defender torso contact could be a PC foul when the defender doesn't have LGP? Could you also please cite a rule to back up your call? [/B]

JR, there is only one that I can think of:

A1 grabs an offensive rebound on the block. B1 was standing between A1 and the basket and facing the basket when the ball went over his head and A1 got the rebound. B1 doesn't react quickly to A1 getting the rebound and still has his back to A1 when A1 makes a power dribble and move to the basket in an attempt to score. A1 sticks his shoulder into the back of B1's torso and knocks him to the floor while scoring a goal.
Obviously the correct call is a player control foul. B1 never had LGP, but he did have a legal position on the floor. He is entitled to that.

Rule Refs to back this:
4-23-1 "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."
and the Simplified and Illustrated diagram on the top of page 27.
Plus there used to be a case play in which B1 falls to the floor in the lane and dribbler A1 trips over him. The ruling stated that it was not a foul on B1 as he was entitled to any spot on the floor even if he was momentarily lying down on it. I can't locate that play right now though.

However, I agree with JR that 99.9% of the time a block/charge decision depends upon LGP of the defender. All of the other examples that wwcfoa43 and refTN give are PC fouls but they are not charging fouls. They are examples of illegal use of hands/arms/feet. What refTN is failing to grasp is that in his examples, the decision is not between a block or a charge, but hinges upon noticing some illegal action that the player with the ball did prior to any block/charge situation taking place. It just happens to be a PC foul because that player had the ball. To prove this remove the ball from the play and have the two players do the same actions. Would you call a charge? No. You would call a push or illegal use of hands/...




[/B][/QUOTE]

I understand what you are saying Nevadaref, but I am not getting into paticulars with what is what. I am just blowing my whistle and taking the play the other way.