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Old Wed Mar 15, 2006, 09:57am
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I've heard this said by announcers, and it cropped up in the discussion about rules that are never called, but I need a clarification on this "lowering the shoulder" principle.

I assume they mean "lowering the shoulder and running into the defender is a charge", not "lowering the shoulder is a charge", even if contact is initiated by the defender, correct?

Is there anything about lowering the shoulder in a case book, or is this one of these things that gets passed on from person to person?
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Old Wed Mar 15, 2006, 10:40am
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I don't think you'll find anything specifically addressing "lowering the shoulder" in the rule book or case book. There is nothing illegal about lowering the shoulder in and of itself. However, it's often done by an offensive player in control of the ball to clear space (I.E. displacement) and is a player control foul.

Z

P.S. Announcers seldom know the rules so they are generally not good sources for referees.
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Old Wed Mar 15, 2006, 11:13am
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Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
P.S. Announcers seldom know the rules so they are generally not good sources for referees.
I was just surprised by WooPigSooie's posting in the other discussion where he said that he had been told in his rules meeting "that NO MATTER what the defender is doing (shuffling the feet to keep pace with the defender, etc), if the offensive player does an act (and they usually use the lowering the shoulder example) to create separation, it should be called an offesive foul."

The key is the displacement, not the lowering of the shoulder, correct?
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Old Wed Mar 15, 2006, 11:23am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jimgolf
Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
P.S. Announcers seldom know the rules so they are generally not good sources for referees.
I was just surprised by WooPigSooie's posting in the other discussion where he said that he had been told in his rules meeting "that NO MATTER what the defender is doing (shuffling the feet to keep pace with the defender, etc), if the offensive player does an act (and they usually use the lowering the shoulder example) to create separation, it should be called an offesive foul."

The key is the displacement, not the lowering of the shoulder, correct?
Well, you usually need some kind of displacement in block/charge situations, but the key imo usually is whether the defender has established and maintained a legal guarding position before the contact.

Usually, with shoulder contact on the defender's torso, if LGP is there, it's a charge. If LGP isn't there, it's a block.
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Old Wed Mar 15, 2006, 02:51pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
The key is the displacement, not the lowering of the shoulder, correct? [/B]
Well, you usually need some kind of displacement in block/charge situations, but the key imo usually is whether the defender has established and maintained a legal guarding position before the contact.

Usually, with shoulder contact on the defender's torso, if LGP is there, it's a charge. If LGP isn't there, it's a block. [/B][/QUOTE]

I am not sure I agree with this assessment. We do not let players on offense extend an arm to strike a defender even if the defender has no LGP. By the same token there may be instances of other acts committed by the offensive player causing contact that would constitute a player control foul even without LGP. I can imagine a scenario where I would call PC without LGP involving a lowering of the shoulder.

The key is that the lack of LGP does not give the offensive player free reign to perform any movement they desire. Lowering the shoulder since it can be dangerous and is not part of a "normal" basketball movement could be considered in this category.
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Old Wed Mar 15, 2006, 03:44pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by wwcfoa43
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
The key is the displacement, not the lowering of the shoulder, correct?
Well, you usually need some kind of displacement in block/charge situations, but the key imo usually is whether the defender has established and maintained a legal guarding position before the contact.

Usually, with shoulder contact on the defender's torso, if LGP is there, it's a charge. If LGP isn't there, it's a block. [/B]
I am not sure I agree with this assessment. We do not let players on offense extend an arm to strike a defender even if the defender has no LGP. By the same token there may be instances of other acts committed by the offensive player causing contact that would constitute a player control foul even without LGP. I can imagine a scenario where I would call PC without LGP involving a lowering of the shoulder.

The key is that the lack of LGP does not give the offensive player free reign to perform any movement they desire. Lowering the shoulder since it can be dangerous and is not part of a "normal" basketball movement could be considered in this category. [/B][/QUOTE]

wwcfoa43 hit it on the head. I was taught and trained that if the offensive player uses an some kind of "overt" action that we don't need to legitimize LGP, it is an offensive fouls. Here are some examples of Overt actions, but are not limited to:

Leading with the foot on a drive
excessively extending the arm
wipe outs with the off arm

I on some rare occassions was going to call a block on a player and then right as i blow my whistle the offensive kid would do something overt and I would take the charge. Not often but I have done it before.
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Old Wed Mar 15, 2006, 04:13pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by refTN
Quote:
Originally posted by wwcfoa43
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
The key is the displacement, not the lowering of the shoulder, correct?
Well, you usually need some kind of displacement in block/charge situations, but the key imo usually is whether the defender has established and maintained a legal guarding position before the contact.

Usually, with shoulder contact on the defender's torso, if LGP is there, it's a charge. If LGP isn't there, it's a block.
I am not sure I agree with this assessment. We do not let players on offense extend an arm to strike a defender even if the defender has no LGP. By the same token there may be instances of other acts committed by the offensive player causing contact that would constitute a player control foul even without LGP. I can imagine a scenario where I would call PC without LGP involving a lowering of the shoulder.

The key is that the lack of LGP does not give the offensive player free reign to perform any movement they desire. Lowering the shoulder since it can be dangerous and is not part of a "normal" basketball movement could be considered in this category. [/B]
wwcfoa43 hit it on the head. I was taught and trained that if the offensive player uses an some kind of "overt" action that we don't need to legitimize LGP, it is an offensive fouls. Here are some examples of Overt actions, but are not limited to:

Leading with the foot on a drive
excessively extending the arm
wipe outs with the off arm

I on some rare occassions was going to call a block on a player and then right as i blow my whistle the offensive kid would do something overt and I would take the charge. Not often but I have done it before. [/B][/QUOTE]You and WWCFOA43 both need to go back and re-read what I wrote. I was talking about shoulder-to-torso contact only. O-N-L-Y!!!! I highlighted it above in red- again- for your viewing pleasure. As I stated in another thread, a push-off with a dribbler's arm has got nothing at all to do with LGP.
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Old Wed Mar 15, 2006, 04:16pm
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Maybe rather than displacement, you might want to look at this from an advantage/disadvantage position. If the offensive player lowers the shoulder and gains some separation (as stated earlier), it definitely needs to be called.
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Old Wed Mar 15, 2006, 04:17pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
You and WWCFOA43 both need to go back and re-read what I wrote. I was talking about shoulder-to-torso contact only. O-N-L-Y!!!! As I stated in another thread, a push-off with a dribbler's arm has got nothing at all to do with LGP. [/B]
I read it fine. I was using the example of arm contact to illustrate a situation which we may wish to treat similarly.

As I said, depending on the situation and the actions of the offensive player, I can see situations where shoulder to torso contact could be PC even without LGP. One could argue that if the shoulder was not lowered that the defender would have more time to get into LGP. One could also argue that the danger to players of this action constitutes making it illegal independent of LGP.
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Old Wed Mar 15, 2006, 04:48pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by wwcfoa43
[/B]
As I said, depending on the situation and the actions of the offensive player, I can see situations where shoulder to torso contact could be PC even without LGP.
[/B][/QUOTE]Could you please give me an example then of a situation where dribbler shoulder to defender torso contact could be a PC foul when the defender doesn't have LGP? Could you also please cite a rule to back up your call?
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Old Wed Mar 15, 2006, 04:54pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by wwcfoa43
As I said, depending on the situation and the actions of the offensive player, I can see situations where shoulder to torso contact could be PC even without LGP.
[/B]
Could you please give me an example then of a situation where dribbler shoulder to defender torso contact could be a PC foul when the defender doesn't have LGP? Could you also please cite a rule to back up your call? [/B][/QUOTE]

There is a reference in the NCAA Appendix for women's, but can't find any references for men.
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Old Wed Mar 15, 2006, 05:09pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BadNewsRef
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by wwcfoa43
As I said, depending on the situation and the actions of the offensive player, I can see situations where shoulder to torso contact could be PC even without LGP.
Could you please give me an example then of a situation where dribbler shoulder to defender torso contact could be a PC foul when the defender doesn't have LGP? Could you also please cite a rule to back up your call? [/B]
There is a reference in the NCAA Appendix for women's, but can't find any references for men. [/B][/QUOTE]I'm not aware of that particular reference. Could you post it please, or give me a cite that I can look up?
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Old Wed Mar 15, 2006, 06:08pm
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You guys are talking about displacement being the quantifying factor for calling a PC, which I dont agree with. 6'7 250 lb 5-man guarding a 5'10 160 lb guard on a fast break. Guard lowers the shoulder yet there is no displacement. We penalize the 6'7 guy for being an ox? That is essentially what I am getting out of this.....I'm gonna call it. The guard did a non-basketball movement in an ATTEMPT to gain an advantage. Tweet....PC foul
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Old Wed Mar 15, 2006, 06:37pm
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Originally posted by WooPigSooie
You guys are talking about displacement being the quantifying factor for calling a PC, which I dont agree with. 6'7 250 lb 5-man guarding a 5'10 160 lb guard on a fast break. Guard lowers the shoulder yet there is no displacement. We penalize the 6'7 guy for being an ox? That is essentially what I am getting out of this.....I'm gonna call it. The guard did a non-basketball movement in an ATTEMPT to gain an advantage. Tweet....PC foul
Well, some officials will rule the contact as being "incidental" if no displacement occurs. I'm usually one of those officials.

What you want to call though is completely up to you.
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Old Wed Mar 15, 2006, 07:37pm
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Since a defender is allowed to turn and brace himself for impending contact, why shouldn't an offensive player be allowed to lower his shoulder to brace for impending contact?
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