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Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
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Originally posted by wwcfoa43
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As I said, depending on the situation and the actions of the offensive player, I can see situations where shoulder to torso contact could be PC even without LGP.
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Could you please give me an example then of a situation where dribbler shoulder to defender torso contact could be a PC foul when the defender
doesn't have LGP? Could you also please cite a rule to back up your call? [/B][/QUOTE]
JR, there is only one that I can think of:
A1 grabs an offensive rebound on the block. B1 was standing between A1 and the basket and facing the basket when the ball went over his head and A1 got the rebound. B1 doesn't react quickly to A1 getting the rebound and still has his back to A1 when A1 makes a power dribble and move to the basket in an attempt to score. A1 sticks his shoulder into the back of B1's torso and knocks him to the floor while scoring a goal.
Obviously the correct call is a player control foul. B1 never had LGP, but he did have a legal position on the floor. He is entitled to that.
Rule Refs to back this:
4-23-1 "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."
and the Simplified and Illustrated diagram on the top of page 27.
Plus there used to be a case play in which B1 falls to the floor in the lane and dribbler A1 trips over him. The ruling stated that it was not a foul on B1 as he was entitled to any spot on the floor even if he was momentarily lying down on it. I can't locate that play right now though.
However, I agree with JR that 99.9% of the time a block/charge decision depends upon LGP of the defender. All of the other examples that wwcfoa43 and refTN give are PC fouls but they are not charging fouls. They are examples of illegal use of hands/arms/feet. What refTN is failing to grasp is that in his examples, the decision is not between a block or a charge, but hinges upon noticing some illegal action that the player with the ball did prior to any block/charge situation taking place. It just happens to be a PC foul because that player had the ball. To prove this remove the ball from the play and have the two players do the same actions. Would you call a charge? No. You would call a push or illegal use of hands/...