Lowering the shoulder

[Raymond]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nevadaref

Rule Refs to back this:
4-23-1 "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."
and the Simplified and Illustrated diagram on the top of page 27.
Plus there used to be a case play in which B1 falls to the floor in the lane and dribbler A1 trips over him. The ruling stated that it was not a foul on B1 as he was entitled to any spot on the floor even if he was momentarily lying down on it. I can't locate that play right now though.

That is not the case in either the NFHS nor NCAA rulebooks. NCAA specifically says that this scenario is a foul on B1.

NCAA Rule 4 Section 33 A.R. 23. B1 slips to the floor in the free-throw lane. A1 (with his/her back to B1, who is
prone) receives a pass, turns and, in his or her attempt to drive to the basket, trips and
falls over B1. RULING: Foul on B1, who has taken an illegal defensive position.

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BadNewsRef

Originally posted by Nevadaref

That is not the case in either the NFHS nor NCAA rulebooks. NCAA specifically says that this scenario is a foul on B1.

NCAA Rule 4 Section 33 A.R. 23. B1 slips to the floor in the free-throw lane. A1 (with his/her back to B1, who is
prone) receives a pass, turns and, in his or her attempt to drive to the basket, trips and
falls over B1. RULING: Foul on B1, who has taken an illegal defensive position.

It's a foul on B1 under NCAA rules, as you stated. Under NFHS rules, it's not a foul unless the player on the floor tried to trip or block the offensive player. The language of the case play said "he/she is entitled to a position on the court even if it is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down." That case play was 10.6.1SitE in last year's case book.

But.....this particular play is still not relevant to the rules discussion we were having. It doesn't involve shoulder to torso contact in any way.

[Nevadaref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Originally posted by BadNewsRef

It's a foul on B1 under NCAA rules, as you stated. Under NFHS rules, it's not a foul unless the player on the floor tried to trip or block the offensive player. The language of the case play said "he/she is entitled to a position on the court even if it is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down." That case play was 10.6.1SitE in last year's case book.

But.....this particular play is still not relevant to the rules discussion we were having. It doesn't involve shoulder to torso contact in any way.

JR, Thanks for finding that casebook play. I knew that it existed. I do have to wonder why it isn't included in this year's version though. What do you think about the rebounding play? Does it provide an adequate example for your parameters?
PS Back from the crypt otherwise known as Las Vegas night life, where I spent the opening weekend of the NCAA tourney. Hopefully, I wasn't observed by some of those NCAA people who were stationed there to monitor the gaming situation surrounding March Madness!

BNR, Yes, I am aware that the college ruling on this play is different. It has even been discussed on this forum in the past. Since JR desired an example, and I know that he doesn't work NCAA ball, I referenced NFHS rules in my previous post. I never claimed that the NCAA rule was the same, however, you have unfortunately claimed that the NFHS ruling is what the NCAA follows. Perhaps your situation is just opposite from JR's and you only officiate at the NCAA level, and thus weren't aware of the HS rule.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
[/B]

1) What do you think about the rebounding play? Does it provide an adequate example for your parameters?

2) BNR, Yes, I am aware that the college ruling on this play is different.

[/B][/QUOTE]1) Yeah, that rebounding play could involve shoulder to torso contact on a player without LGP. The rule doesn't specify the front of the torso or the back of the torso.The "trip over the player on the floor" play though is still completely irrelevent to the discussion.

2) The college ruling re: a player on the floor is different than the FED's, but, again, that ain't relevant to the discussion we're having. I'm still waiting for an to NCAA cite that states that shoulder-to-torso contact should be called differently than in the NFHS. Afaik, shoulder to torso contact is pretty much called the same way in all rulesets, with regards to LGP.



[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 20th, 2006 at 07:08 AM]

[Raymond]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

BNR, Yes, I am aware that the college ruling on this play is different. It has even been discussed on this forum in the past. Since JR desired an example, and I know that he doesn't work NCAA ball, I referenced NFHS rules in my previous post. I never claimed that the NCAA rule was the same, however, you have unfortunately claimed that the NFHS ruling is what the NCAA follows. Perhaps your situation is just opposite from JR's and you only officiate at the NCAA level, and thus weren't aware of the HS rule.

Nevadaref,
I work predominantly HS ball with a little JuCo. But I also work a couple Rec leagues that use NCAA rules. I couldn't find anything in this year's NFHS rulebook that referenced the particular situation about a defensive player lying on the floor and the offensive player tripping over him.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Yeah, that rebounding play could involve shoulder to torso contact on a player without LGP. The rule doesn't specify the front of the torso or the back of the torso.The "trip over the player on the floor" play though is still completely irrelevent to the discussion.

Agreed. I only cited the lying on the floor play to support that a player is entitled to a spot on the floor whether or not he has LGP.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) The college ruling re: a player on the floor is different than the FED's, but, again, that ain't relevant to the discussion we're having. I'm still waiting for an to NCAA cite that states that shoulder-to-torso contact should be called differently than in the NFHS. Afaik, shoulder to torso contact is pretty much called the same way in all rulesets, with regards to LGP.

Again I agree with ya.
I only know of one NCAAW rule which makes a difference here. That is the one about not being able to take a charge while standing under the basket unless the drive comes parallel with the end line. This could be viewed as not having LGP though.

[drinkeii]

I find it interesting that people have discussed the concept of a really big person just not being displaced. I had a player that played in a league that i officiated a large number of games in, and he constantly complained that he was getting fouled, and wasn't getting any calls. When I started watching, he was right - he was being hit, pushed, shoved, etc. But in most cases, almost no displacement occurred because he was tall and large.

Most people say not to call a foul, without displacement, and the rules support this. But is this fair to the larger players, who can get hit and pushed and if they are able to hold their ground, there would be no foul called? I'm not out looking to call fouls, but should the larger players be subject to more abuse simply because it is harder to displace them?

BTW, I wasn't able to find a lot of situations where I could call the fouls. Many times, i noticed the fouls after the game, looking at videos from it, but during the game, because there was no displacement, it was hard, if not impossible, to see the contact as a foul.