coaches "working" officials

[Ref Daddy]

Coach's: Question for you..... (and something I have no idea about)

How much attention do you pay to interaction between the OTHER coach and the referee's?

[JCrow]

IMO:

As a guy who has played, coached and officiated....I thinking trying to "work" Refs is very counter-productive to winning. Granted, it might buy a call or two against less experienced refs but.....

It sends a BAD message to your Team. It tells them that the reason they are losing or are not winning by more is the Refs not their own play. It gives them an excuse to lose. It turns them into "victims" rather than athletes that can control their own destiny. It ruins the sirit of competition.

It is a bad life lesson and it trancends today's society because we teach it to our kids as they grow up. You think HS Coaches get paid for just "winning"? What a shallow viewpoint.

When a Coach tries to "work" me. He absolutely better be 110% right because if he's nailing me on 3 seconds during a series of offensive rebounds and turning the fans and kids into a mob of screaming whiners....I'm getting a big RESENTMENT.

[lmeadski]

If I understand the question, I read it to be: What is the best way for a coach to interact with refs. As refs, we enter games wondering what kind of temperment the coaches, players and fans will have that night. As players and coaches, they wonder/feel the same way about the refs (unless it is a ref they are familiar with...and I don't feel you should ref a team TOO MANY TIMES in a season): do these guys call a tight game, a loose game, etc. During the course of a game (and usually very early) we refs learn if a coach is going to try to WORK us. We also learn if a coach is willing to WORK WITH us. Coaches who treat the refs respectfully (notice, I didn't say agree with every call) and have taught their players to do the same thing (don't you feel that respectful players make our games MUCH easier, even if their coach crosses a line or two..) I feel are doing all they can with the refs to help their team win (in respect to the refs). I will say, a coach who isn't in my ear some, I have to wonder if they are even in the game! So, work with the refs, dont work them. Sure, ask questions about calls you wonder about, don't throw out rhetorical questions like, "You going to call them both ways, ref?" Comments like that imply we might be calling the game unfairly or unevenly. Every ref I know, their whistle is color blind. They only see the fouls and violations, not the color of the jersey's committing them. However, ride me like a cheap pony and my disposition may not be one of giving you the benefit on a close call.

[buckrog64]

Coach, I know you're job is tough. Mine is too. There are only two or three objective people in this gym, and I'm one of them. Addressing me politely will get you a lot further, if you feel the need to try and 'work' me. But don't expect a whole lot of results.

I've been doing this long enough that I trust my own eyes, my own rule knowledge and my ability to properly officiate a game. Will stuff get missed? Hell, yes! Goes with the territory. I'd rather miss something than make something up, which I know sometimes happens. Everyone in the gym has a better view of the play than we do, but we have the guts to be on the court and make the calls as best we can.

Trust me, I know there are some officials out there who are lemons. Word gets around and either those guys wash out or get real limited in what their schedule becomes.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by bebanovich

I've had several officials actually read what I was posting and give thoughtful answers that helped me think about the issue. That's why I persist. A few have said that coaches who pick their moments and say, "please watch for x,y or z" might get their attention. If you actually read my quote that you pasted in your last post you would have noticed that was similar to one of the ways I define "working" an official - probably a poor choice of words in choosing a title for this thread.

I don't think I ever described behavior that was howler-monkeyesque - I think I have asked refs for calls (but not all game - jeez, I've got things to do) when I thought the crew was especially weak, inexperienced or indecisive.

It seems that one of two things is going on here: 1) a few are not reading my posts very carefully and are making judgments based on the situation, their feelings about coaches (or me in particular) and partial evidence (which would be poor officiating, would it not) 2) a few really want to be in a flame war with a coach and I'm not really playing along. If 2 is the case please let me know, I love a good roast and would be happy to oblige.

Actually, I read them very well, including between the lines. You said yourself you are looking for an edge.

You want to cheat, I'm not going to help you do so.

Good coaches know that they don't need a short cut/edge, to win the game.

[Dan_ref]

Coach comes to a basketball official's forum, wanting to know the best & safest way to work the officials at his games.

Coach is essentially told there is no best way, his best strategy is to coach his team for all the good reasons posted.

Coach admits he only really wants to work the newer, less experienced officials in his league and swears he would never consider going near officials who arrive "like a big mook wearing his dick on his sleeve determined to show me he is the big silverback gorilla".

Conclusion: Dealing with coaches is like dealing with a dog. Pack mentality is the key. Establish who's in control & they will be very happy to fall in line. But like a dog they are very good at perceiving a power vacuum and will immediately attempt to fill it. Further, if a coach views the opposing coach is getting more than he is or is barking louder than they are they are overwhelmed with the desire to bark themselves. Again, the solution is to make both coaches realize who, exactly, is in control to eliminate the petty jealousies that they are subject to.

Enjoy the superbowl.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by JCrow
IMO:It sends a BAD message to your Team. It tells them that the reason they are losing or are not winning by more is the Refs not their own play. It gives them an excuse to lose. It turns them into "victims" rather than athletes that can control their own destiny.

This is a very good point and something that I deal with directly with my team. We practice what is in the rule book but it is the job of the players early on (with my help, of course) to adjust to how the game is being called. If the whistle blows, it's a violation, if it doesn't, it's not. Any whining at breaks is squashed early and doesn't go much beyond November.

In our last game, I had a player pick up 2 early fouls trying to steal the ball from a dribbler. When he came to the bench, he complained that on the second one, he hadn't touched the man. I explained that he was out of position and because he was reaching down toward the ball he was drawing the whistle. I reminded him that I wasn't going to protect him and he needed to move his feet.

He didn't work it out and he fouled out before halftime with his teammates pleading with him to move his damn feet and stop reaching. I complained on two of the calls that the official was out of position to see contact and that on the second one I thought he was calling a violation for bad defense and not actual contact - this got a smile.

I am very transparent with my kids about what I am doing and that we each have different responsibilities - they are very perceptive (even though they can't seem to stop reaching). By the way, I didn't feel like I was having much effect on the calls in this one so I tested the waters, read the crew, showed my player I had his back even after I put the burdern on him to clean it up and then I shut up. When we debriefed the game the next day and I asked why we lost, the kid who fouled out immediately offered, "we couldn't stop fouling."

I really screwed up this thread by using the term "worked" in the title. I agree that it's counter-productive to want every call or random calls. I will admit that I have fallen into this trap occasionally when overcome by emotion in a close game but not for long and not even to the point of getting a prolonged look from an official with whistle in mouth ready to slap me down.

Let me give a better example - and a common one for us last year - of what I would consider working an official. At least in our area, hand-checking and, to my biased eye, seemingly minor and incidental, open-floor contact became a point of emphasis last year. We would press and run like crazy and throw to our massive but not-too-tall center inside. He would get pushed in the back, hacked on the arm, grabbed by the shirt, have his feet stepped on and was hit across the face three times hard enough to draw blood with only one of the three called a foul.

I know that a solid, experienced official would fold a point of emphasis right into the rest of his/her game and, I've tried to be diplomatic and haven't called out any specific organization or even given details about my location but last year was not an up year for our officials.

Faced with this situation, early in the game when a legitimate handcheck was called, I would take the opportunity to tell my player that it's the right call and explain why it's the right call loudly enough for the official to hear. Then, if my big guy got hammered without a call, I might make some noise and I might not - depending on the crew. At the first break I would try to make my point that I support calling the handcheck but to do that without calling the same amount of contact on my center is going to give the opponent a clear advantage that should not come from the officiating.

I consider that "working" the officials and, more often than not, either the open-court calls decreased (which I prefer) or the inside calls increased or both. Was it always my influence that did it? I don't really care. Is this cheating? If no one blows a whistle on me, I guess not. Is this a sign of bad officiating of officiating weakness? I'm not the best judge, but I don't really think so.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by Ref Daddy
Coach's: Question for you..... (and something I have no idea about)

How much attention do you pay to interaction between the OTHER coach and the referee's?

I can't say I pay a lot of attention, but I note early if they are vocal. If they seem like they are trying to call the game from the bench, I look for cues from the crew about how this is going over. I know this has been the whole focus of the thread, but I don't want it to be more than 10 - 15% of my focus. If we played a different system, that number would be way too high but we run a Grinnell-type system which dictates to the extreme rather than adjust.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by bebanovich
...sometimes it's "you're calling us for every little touch on the perimeter and your letting them hammer us inside. you can't reward one style over another!"

I've got news for you, coach. You're never going to see positive results from this one. You're telling me, "You're cheating us." I'm not going to listen to that and I don't know any other official who is either.

Advice

1- If you want me to listen to you and to talk to you, speak to me in the same manner that you want to be spoken to.

2- Never say anything that accuses me of favoring the other team. I'm not there to favor either club. Accusing me of cheating will just get you a deaf ear. If you continue with it, it'll get you a seat. (It amazes me that coaches still haven't figured this one out.)

3- Don't use announcerspeak terms like "over the back" or "reachin!" It tells me that you don't know the rules, which means that nothing I say will matter. So I'm not going to say anything.

Hope that helps!

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 5th, 2006 at 07:08 PM]

[bgtg19]

Originally posted by bebanovich
I was sincere in starting this thread that I tried coaching only the bench and I got worked.

Coach, I'll take your sincerity at face value, but can I suggest that you did not give the alternate approach much of a chance? In the first post, you said: "I decided that I was going to put all of my game energy into coaching the bench and was not going to say anything to officials during the games (except when necessary for a clarification or conference, etc)." You then changed your mind "by the end of [your] first game back." You said: "After that game, I decided that I couldn't just say nothing and needed another plan." I'm not accussing you of being insincere, but I will say that if you changed your mind after one game it does appear that you were a little too eager to enter the fray with the officials. As you say, you've given this topic a lot of thought.

Why not give your first plan a real chance at success? Tarheelcoach has given you/us a coach's perspective that in many games "working" (even in the positive sense) officials is unnecessary. There might be a few crews that invite some "working," and you simply respond to their invitation. You admitted that the crew on your first game back was an inexperienced crew. Can you go through a whole season with a coaching-only attitude and see how it goes? You might be surprised at the results.

I agree with those who have posted that when a coach is constantly questioning the officials, it sends a message to their players. You have been careful to point out that you are clear with your players about *their* roles - they don't get to complain - and that is a good step, but you may not be fully appreciating the message that you are sending to the young people who are learning life lessons from you.

Best wishes as you continue to learn and improve. Most of us here are similarly hoping to learn and improve.

[SeanFitzRef]

As a former player, coach and current ref, here are some suggestions for Bebanovich and the other coaches on this forum:

1) Coach your team!! If you put three quarters of the amount of energy into devising an 'unstoppable' play as you have worrying about how to work the officials, your team gameplan might improve to the point where you don't have to worry about the officials.

2) Teach your team the FUNDAMENTALS!!!! If your team is playing defense properly, boxing out properly, dribbling and passing and screening properly, you don't have to worry about us officials.

3) Make it about the kids!!! They are there to have fun and learn, not be brought down by some 'adult' that needs to feel justified in his position on the bench.

The fact that you feel you need to gain an extra edge is not justified by saying that your opposing coaches might out-yell or out-whine you. If you ever sit back and watch a game in which you have no rooting interest, you will notice how much easier it is to see the officials' calls for what they are.

I handle the squeaky wheel coaches with my own tactic. When they scream and scream for a call, I give it to them. And after the other team inbounds the ball following the infraction they asked for, they normally shut up.

[Edited by SeanFitzRef on Feb 6th, 2006 at 12:24 PM]

[socalreff]

Dan ref.... you're a bitter old man.

[LarryS]

To all coaches...I think you will find that most officials aren't really listening to you. I know I try to ignore everything except what is happening in front of me.

I can only think of one time when a coaches comment(s) impacted how one of my games was called. My partner and I had a good pregame and I thought things were going very well. He was "letting the play" more than I early on but we got on the same page rather quickly.

Early in the second period my partner came over during a time out and said that both coaches were complaining about not getting the same call (they both wanted the bumping in the paint to stop). He suggested that should probably watch for it a little more then added "Maybe we are letting too much go...it's at least worth considering. Let's talk to them more off ball." We did that the rest of the period (and called a few fouls).

In the third quarter, both teams cleaned it up and we didn't hear anything further from either coach...except for the fact that one team left with a loss, everyone left happy.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by socalreff
Dan ref.... you're a bitter old man.

This actually made me laugh!

Thanks for brightening up my otherwise miserable existance.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by bebanovich
In our league, we mostly use a particular organization and I found myself working for more calls (with self-imposed limits that I can go into if anyone is interested), with mixed results - never really feeling good about this but at least feeling like everything was evening-out in the end. Anyway, I kept hammering away the same way every game until our tournament when officials from a different organization were brought in. At the end of the first quarter, one of the officials came over and pointed out that a call I was demanding on our opponent was really going to hurt my team and our style if he started to mete it out how I wanted it it at both ends. The only other thing I said to officials all night was a quip to the same ref as he ran by and it ended up being a tournament win for us. .

HELLO!?!? Are you listening to yourself? You quit bugging the refs and your team won. Why not, "Lesson learned?"

I'm sorry to sound impatient and rude, but I really get tired of you coaches yelling and yelling at me when it's the players who should be receiving 100% of your attention. The more you coach them, the better they'll play. The more you don't blame someone else when they goof, the more they'll work on their shortcomings. It's just that simple. Trying to get a win out of the ref is a huge waste of time, and of taxpayer money.

Of course there's room for the occasional suggestion or question. But the tone of your post to is strategize your conversations, and that's simply not a helpful thing to do. The more coaches do this to me, the less lee-way they get.

I had a coach question a call (relatively politely) during a dead ball. I told him the rules basis of my call, and he disagreed, but then said, okay if that's the way you're going to call it, we won't use that play. And they didn't. And they won, by the way. He wasn't working me, he was adjusting. That's good strategy. You teach your players to adjust to the reffing they've got. That's just good coaching.

Oh, and while you're at it, talk to the parents. Don't let them do the yelling that you can't do. The fewer zingers I get from the stands the more lee-way I'll give the coach, frankly.

Just a few suggestions from a grouchy ref.