coaches "working" officials

[blindzebra]

Coaches that yap all game cause headaches, but they don't get calls.

In fact, if you want to use the violation calling machine reference, the natural reaction to a pain in the rear is not to give them what they want.

Coaches that say very little and pick their spots, garner much more respect and get listened to and not just heard.

You want an officials advice, coach your team, don't worry about the officials, don't worry about what the other coach is doing, if you and your team are focused on playing, everything takes care of itself.

Want proof?

The howler monkey that gets a T, and then has to coach usually sees their team play better after the T. Of course the coach will see it as taking a T to motivate his team, which is BS. What it is, is refocusing on what you and your team is out there for, playing the game.

[Edited by blindzebra on Feb 5th, 2006 at 01:47 AM]

[Texas Aggie]

I've had games where both coaches never said a word to me. I've had games where both coaches were borderline out of control. And I've had games of everything in between.

There's no one here that can assure you that any one style will get you the desired results. If I'm working your game, I can assure you that the other coach's behavior isn't going to impact what I call. I'm much more concerned about the kids on the floor staying under control as I hope I can trust the coach to behave like an adult (at least moreso than his kids). What I mean by that is that if you aren't demonstrative or spouting clearly unsportsmanlike language, I'm pretty much going to ignore you other than the polite "OK" to respond to your comments and answer whatever questions I can and should.

What I would recommend you try is to think about what type of comment or question you can make or ask to the officials that isn't disrespectful, but does issue a concern that another coach "working them" while you are concentrating on coaching would give the other team an advantage. Don't bring it up pre-game, just when its necessary, say, at a time out. On the other hand, don't try to brown nose either. A comment like "I'm behaving myself" with nothing more insinuates that you expect to be rewarded for that. You have to make darn sure you don't appear to be whining, as that will get you a tune out quicker than just about anything.

I've had a coach this year tell me the work in his game was the best he's had (don't know if he meant this year or all time). He also stated that comments directed at us were based primarily on showing his kids that he was as into the game as they were. I think there are other ways to communicate to your kids than working the officials.

Being an attorney, I'm skilled at gathering information through questions. If I were a coach, I'd probably talk to the officials with questions more than comments. Direct, leading questions can be persuasive, and if you ask them politely and without disrespect, that might be a way to "work" the officials on your own terms. But make sure the questions are stupid. Like whining, they'll get tuned out fast.

[JRutledge]

If you run into an officials like me, I work so many places I do not give a damn what you complain about. At some point I will completely ignore you. It was said before the coaches that pick their spots might get my attention in a positive way if you are asking legitimate questions at proper times. If you keep complaining, I will ignore you than get rid of you if you choose not to stop. I will finish the game with you or without you. So you can play along or I will see you leaving the gym. Likely you will be around mainly because I just will not care about all the complaining. Officials like me make jokes afterwards about coaches like you. Then I will tell other officials about you and they will be aware of your crap and you might get a much shorter leach with the next guy. If I do not ever see you again it will not bother me at all. I probably passed 100 schools to work your game. So what difference does it make if you do not like the job I have been doing? You probably will not be at that school in a couple of years and I will not have to deal with you in the first place.

Peace

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by Texas Aggie
What I would recommend you try is to think about what type of comment or question you can make or ask to the officials that isn't disrespectful, but does issue a concern that another coach "working them" while you are concentrating on coaching would give the other team an advantage. Don't bring it up pre-game, just when its necessary, say, at a time out. On the other hand, don't try to brown nose either. A comment like "I'm behaving myself" with nothing more insinuates that you expect to be rewarded for that. You have to make darn sure you don't appear to be whining, as that will get you a tune out quicker than just about anything.

Now THIS is something I can work on. Thanks Texas!

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by JRutledge
At some point I will completely ignore you.

Yes, I believe I know what you mean.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by bebanovich

Now THIS is something I can work on. Thanks Texas!

That is exactly the recommendation I originally had for the quiet coach referenced in my earlier post on this thread. Then I told her no, forget it, because it seemed to me that to even say it was to insinuate that an official could possibly be successfully 'worked', not a flattering insinuation.

Maybe it can be done, with just the right language . . .

[TimTaylor]

Originally posted by blindzebra
Coaches that yap all game cause headaches, but they don't get calls.

In fact, if you want to use the violation calling machine reference, the natural reaction to a pain in the rear is not to give them what they want.

Coaches that say very little and pick there spots, garner much more respect and get listened to and not just heard.

You want an officials advice, coach your team, don't worry about the officials, don't worry about what the other coach is doing, if you and your team are focused on playing everything takes care of itself.

This is very good advice, and the vast majority of officials I know and work with would agree.

[Adam]

Originally posted by bebanovich

It's always a very uncomfortable moment for me too when I hear the whistle after I pine for a call I think I'm not going to get. You'd think I'd be happy but I usually want to crawl into a hole. If I'm standing, I make sure I sit in a hurry. I immediately yell some coaching instructions at least as loud as I just yelled, "WALK!"

Perhaps it is these calls that make people think "working the ref" actually has an effect. I've had to make the calls right after the coach screams for it, and their reactions are sometimes like yours. "Oh, he is paying attention."
If you really think your refs respond well to being worked, then do what you think you must. However, I do not appreciate being coached.
As was already stated, when I sense a coach is coaching me, I'll tune him out and work the game. It's not fair to the kids to change the way I make calls on the basis of a completely biased observation from an obviously less advantageous position than mine.
Also, be aware of the fact that a lot of refs will call what are considered "ABS" T's. Accumulation of Bull Sh**. A comment from a coach who's been coaching his kids the entire game will generally earn a response from me. The same comment from a coach who's been coaching me all game could very well get the other team a couple of free throws and the ball.

An occasional comment, such as "can you watch the pushing on the boards?" is fine, IMO, from the head coach. But if you've been hollaring for traveling every time down the court (I've had coaches like this) or complaining about "ticky-tack" or "cheap" fouls all game, I guarantee I won't hear what you're trying to say when you want me to.

It's an adjustment some of us have to make to focus on the players.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
. . . not a flattering insinuation.

Yeah, even the premise of the question seems to be drawing . . . um . . . mixed results. It seems to me there might be a couple of reasons why an official (and I'm not saying all officials) might be influenced.

1) Lack of certainty due to inexperience, situation or other factor that I'm not really the best source to guess.

2) Some feeling that the coach is correct in asking for a certain call or attention paid to a certain aspect of play.

A carefully phrased suggestion might help balance the equation in situation 1 but it seems that situation 2 would call for an equally persuasive campaign.

I would prefer not to say much of anything but I don't think this is realistic in all or even most cases. I also think I've given the impression that my definition of "working" means constant yapping and whining. Working means whatever seems most useful in any given situation.

If the official comes in the gym like a big mook wearing his dick on his sleeve determined to show me he is the big silverback gorilla, I'm not dumb enough to get into a pissing contest with him. My job is to teach kids to compete in a game I love and to look for an edge within the rules.

[blindzebra]

Coach, your job is to coach your players, trying to gain an edge is cheating, working an official does fall under rule 10-4-1-b Attempting to influence an official's decision.

That is a T.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by blindzebra
Coach, your job is to coach your players, trying to gain an edge is cheating, working an official does fall under rule 10-4-1-b Attempting to influence an official's decision.

That is a T.

Believe me, I would be happy if it were, in practice a T. I was sincere in starting this thread that I tried coaching only the bench and I got worked. I knew it, our few fans knew it, the players knew it. We can go 'round and 'round about how I can't influence calls and there are some crews where I know this is true (and I am all but silent) but by and large I don't believe it. And I don't think I'm a hothead. Sometimes it's, "please watch the grabbing underneath" and sometimes it's "you're calling us for every little touch on the perimeter and your letting them hammer us inside. you can't reward one style over another!"

I'm just trying to be honest and sincere posting here and I do think that officials who would spend time posting and reading message boards are probably of the caliber that would convince me to spend 100% of my time coaching my kids instead of 80 - 90%. But you have to admit, I've also spent more time thinking about this issue than your average coach and I do think that when I only coach my kids, I lose an edge. When there are strict limits on talking to the refs and T's are given to everyone, I will gladly shut up.

[Corndog89]

I'm a long time reader, first time poster...love this forum. I've called HS varsity (as well as JV, intermediate, and lots of rec leagues) and a few NCAA DIII games for the last 5 years in two different states.

Note: My following comments all deal with HS V/JV, not intermediate or rec leagues...those are a whole different ball of wax.

I don't mind coaches talking to me during games, even if they're somewhat agitated...they're doing the job they're hired/paid to do. Granted, it still amazes me that seemingly the majority of varsity HS coaches don't know or understand all the rules, but its not my responsibility to educate them. I will always answer questions (when I hear them) and almost always ignore comments, except to suggest to coaches when they need to scale back (usually works for me). Plus, I know when I'm being "worked" and ignore that. Knock on wood, but I've rarely had a coach lose control (my theory: good partners/good pre-games).

In our association we follow the simple logic of protect the ball, protect the shooter, talk to players off-ball (to nip potential problems in the bud), call the obvious, and not get distracted from the task at hand. Works well for me. I mostly ignore coaches regardless of what they're doing (whether its actually coaching, whining, howling, sitting placidly by, checking the talent in the stands, etc) because they're not my overriding concern...the play on the court is (it keeps my attention). I try to only deal with coaches when there is a need to.

A little off topic, but I've noticed that many refs on this board have a real problem with asst coaches, like they're sub-human or something. I don't get it. Granted, they have to remain seated and are dealt with summarily if they act beyond their role, but I regularly respond to asst coaches if they're in control and not being jerks (see first half of this sentence). In my experience the vast majority of asst coaches know their boundaries and stay within them (head coaches almost always assure this). Besides, treating them as though they're a part of the proceedings tends to make them somewhat of an ally because they're usually little more than an afterthought...make someone feel that their input is valid/important and they suddenly become a contributing part of the process. Not all respond in that way, but I'm continually surprised at how many do.

Gotta go...Steve Martin is on Saturday Night Live.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by bebanovich

Believe me, I would be happy if it were, in practice a T. I was sincere in starting this thread that I tried coaching only the bench and I got worked. I knew it, our few fans knew it, the players knew it. We can go 'round and 'round about how I can't influence calls and there are some crews where I know this is true (and I am all but silent) but by and large I don't believe it. And I don't think I'm a hothead. Sometimes it's, "please watch the grabbing underneath" and sometimes it's "you're calling us for every little touch on the perimeter and your letting them hammer us inside. you can't reward one style over another!"

I'm just trying to be honest and sincere posting here and I do think that officials who would spend time posting and reading message boards are probably of the caliber that would convince me to spend 100% of my time coaching my kids instead of 80 - 90%. But you have to admit, I've also spent more time thinking about this issue than your average coach and I do think that when I only coach my kids, I lose an edge. When there are strict limits on talking to the refs and T's are given to everyone, I will gladly shut up.

You have had several officials tell you it doesn't work.

Common sense should tell you that being a pest is not the best way to get what you want.

Yet you persist, it's very amusing.

You see all you are doing is looking for a way to beat the game and not play it. You perceive an advantage that is not there. Coaches and fans always see what they want to see, and rarely does that view match the reality of the actual situation.

That coach has been yelling for hand checks and they called a hand check, it must have worked. WELL MAYBE YOUR PLAYER HAND CHECKED!

Believe what you want, but come back and read the threads where we all have a good laugh at the expense of coaches who are howler monkeys.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by blindzebra
You have had several officials tell you it doesn't work.

Common sense should tell you that being a pest is not the best way to get what you want.

Yet you persist, it's very amusing.

Believe what you want, but come back and read the threads where we all have a good laugh at the expense of coaches who are howler monkeys.

I've had several officials actually read what I was posting and give thoughtful answers that helped me think about the issue. That's why I persist. A few have said that coaches who pick their moments and say, "please watch for x,y or z" might get their attention. If you actually read my quote that you pasted in your last post you would have noticed that was similar to one of the ways I define "working" an official - probably a poor choice of words in choosing a title for this thread.

I don't think I ever described behavior that was howler-monkeyesque - I think I have asked refs for calls (but not all game - jeez, I've got things to do) when I thought the crew was especially weak, inexperienced or indecisive.

It seems that one of two things is going on here: 1) a few are not reading my posts very carefully and are making judgments based on the situation, their feelings about coaches (or me in particular) and partial evidence (which would be poor officiating, would it not) 2) a few really want to be in a flame war with a coach and I'm not really playing along. If 2 is the case please let me know, I love a good roast and would be happy to oblige.

[tarheelcoach]

Maybe it's the area I work, but I'll tell you that there are officials that do my school's games that can be 'worked'. The coaches know who they are, and the games are a constant battle between who can influence the official to get what he wants. If I chose not to try to 'work' these officals, the calls would be heavily slanted in the other guys direction - I've seen it happen - in my games and other team's games.
That said - the majority of officials above rec ball can NOT be influenced by 'working' them, so I don't waste my time. Just like coaches have a gameplan for beating a particular opponent based on what was successful in the past, we typically have a gameplan for dealing with officials.
Coaches will do what it takes to win ballgames - that's what we get paid for. As long as that is done respectfully I don't see anything wrong with it.