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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 06:11pm
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Cool

Last night at our local boy's game there was almost a fight between the opposing "B" coach and official. Our player "A" gets fouled and falls hard to the floor. Ref beckons coach onto floor. Our team is in the BB so "A" would get foul shots. Player A is OK and coach comes off floor. A goes to line. Coach of team B starts yelling at the ref that team A has to use a time out in order to allow player A to stay in game and shoot free throws. Team A has no time outs. Ref lets player A shoot free throws and makes both. Since team B was only ahead by a point and less that 20" on the clock, team A won game by a point. Coach B is furious. According to NFHS Rule 3, Section 3, Art 5, what should have happened?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 06:37pm
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"A" should not have shot the free throws. Since coach was beckoned and came unto the floor, "A" must be replaced unless his team takes a time out. Since his team had no time outs, they still could have requested a TO at the expense of a technical foul. A could have put their best free throw shooter from the bench into the game to shoot the free throws. Coach B has legitimate complaint.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 07:18pm
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what level game was this

it cant be varsity

because i can tell you if its a lower level game just live with the officials not knowing much...this year as a coach (me) for a boys freshman team i can honestly say for the most part freshman officials are the worst (that's why they are freshman officials).

you name the screw ups they have had and i can tell you even after i tell them during a break in action what should have been they still tell me Im wrong, they are the officials and i dont know the rule.

i can understand now why some coaches get t's but the 2 ive gotten this year i still dont know why i got them

such is life.
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Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 11:21pm
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DeeCee: So Freshman Officials are the worst, thats why they are Freshman Officials! Is that so ?

Over the last 10 years I've had the pleasure of working state and county finals in a sport I truly love. I've never forgotten where I came from. To this day if an AD or assignor gets stuck I will help out.

From Middle School thru Varsity, every year I see your attitude as a coach (shame on you if you are an official) as a cancer in all sports against all officials. The children (yes the children you coach) feed off of you as someone they are supposed to look up to, and to me it sounds as if you are doing a disservice to you players.

What Official worth his sweat wants a coach to tell him what he did wrong. You think we don't make mistakes ! You think we don't discuss things with our partners ! I have no idea who or where your games are played but I would never stand for a coach coming over and telling how the call should have gone.

Tell me I'm wrong, wrong, wrong, it was a bad call, I can live with that. Don't even try to come over (during a break in the action !! I believe there are other things on our mind at that moment)and try to tell me what the rule means. Thats why we have partners, to discuss plays and situations

Here is a little advice next time.......try talking to the official we are only human. I'll listen to anybody but you start screeming or yelling then our conversation is over and I have nothing to say to you.

You might not know why you got the T's but I'm sure everybody reading your post knows why you received them.

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 11:43pm
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you are right

i was once a freshman ref -- but some guys (and all associations have them) that arent good officials (believe it or not they are just there for the check) -- and i give slack to the new guys but there are some that i know have 2-3+ years under their belt -- as a coach tell me you would not get mad at the following

sit a) I tell my players to back the ball out -- ref thinks i called timeout -- i say ok its inadvertant and he says onces he blows the whistle for timeout it must be given -- now i go into the second half with only 2 timeouts. he then tells me that him and his partner discussed it and that once they call the timeout and blow the whistle there is nothing that can be done

sit b) how about being told that my player was called for a block because he was stepping back and wasnt set

sit c) or one of my techincals
me: why was that last play a turnover when my player got shoved in the back (i said that as a question -- all i wanted to hear was coach i didnt see a shove -- fine with me) instead i get coach you better sit down the rest of the half (6mins left Q2)
me: for what?
ref: T

sit d) same ref who t'd me up there in a previous game (same ref 2 ts) -- block called on one side and charge called on other side by the same ref -- i agreed with the charge -- i asked him why we were called for the block (i asked him a question calmly because i know how i want coaches to address me)
ref: coach ive had enough from you (when this was the first time i asked him a question)
me: why wont you answer my question?
ref: T

sit e) you want more -- i treat ppl how i want to be treated and the times i have blown up at officials is when they

1) fail to simply address a question i have (not a statement)
2) tell me to sit down or shut up or both
3) miss several calls in their primary in a row
4) argue rules that they dont know and i do and they insist that they are right

i would be happy if once this season a ref told me -- coach i might have missed that or coach ill try harder or even coach what seems to be bothering you -- but not once this year has even 1 official (im wrong 2 officials that i work and have worked with have) but the others havent managed a game at all --

so if you shame on me and im not teaching my kids anything you are right -- because me having to teach my kids how to play proper basketball and hearing them complain about xyz kid grabbing, elbowing, pushing, hand checking etc. and me trying to get the officials to pay attention would get on your nerves too. The one time i did deserve a t and didnt get one was after i was given my inadvertant time-out -- there if he t'd me up i would have completly agreed and appologized to him after the game. And i dont just tell him out of the blue he was wrong -- i take offense to officials who defend themselves with rules that they dont know and they HAVE to be right.

As for the kids they know if they ever get a t they are in the doghouse. Sometimes however a T is necessary from a coach
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Old Tue Jan 31, 2006, 08:53am
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Quote:
Originally posted by JerzeeRef
DeeCee: So Freshman Officials are the worst, thats why they are Freshman Officials! Is that so ?
JerzeeRef, first of all, welcome to the board. You'll find a lot of valuable info here, and also a wide variety of opinions and personalities.

Second, deecee's comment may have come across wrong, but the truth is that most (not all, but most) freshman officials in my area work freshman games because they are either not experienced enough or not talented enough to work a higher level.

Some freshman officials work a real job at night, and their only availability is at 4 pm. So they get freshman games. Some officials have been varsity officials but took a few years off and are getting re-acclimated to officiating. Others are at the ends of their careers and can't keep up with a faster varsity game anymore; but b/c they love officiating, they take a freshman schedule.

But the vast majority are either just starting out (1-3 years of experience) or have never developed into varsity officials. And on the other end of the spectrum, the vast majority of varsity officials wouldn't choose to do freshman games, unless an assignor really didn't have anybody else and needed a favor.

This is not an indictment of freshman officials. It's just how it works. If you can move up, you do.

I hope you'll stick around the forum and contribute and get to know some of us, so that your only impression isn't an angry one. Good luck on the rest of your season.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2006, 09:52am
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Re: what level game was this

Quote:
Originally posted by deecee
...this year as a coach (me) for a boys freshman team i can honestly say for the most part freshman officials are the worst (that's why they are freshman officials).

There is also a reason coaches are coaching high school freshmen and not varsity or college ball.
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Old Tue Jan 31, 2006, 11:13am
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Re: Re: what level game was this

Quote:
Originally posted by LarryS
Quote:
Originally posted by deecee
...this year as a coach (me) for a boys freshman team i can honestly say for the most part freshman officials are the worst (that's why they are freshman officials).

There is also a reason coaches are coaching high school freshmen and not varsity or college ball.
I too coach at the JV level and this year has been an experience for me. I officiated for the last 8 years at the varsity level, now coaching at the JV level I see a huge differnece in the quality of officials. It's just a fact of life. The JV officials in our area go from a good 2 man crew one night to 3 man the next night that is awful. I posted last week about one official (he obviously didnt know that I used to be an official) who told me of this new kicking rule. I knew he was wrong, I hope he knew he was wrong. Last nights game had to be the worst. What really makes things look bad on those guys (and I do feel bad for them) is when they arent in position to make calls. Ex: last night the lead was beaten badly, didnt make it to free throw line, he and Center were step for step chasing the play. It was an easy call, blatent hacking foul. Center was right in front of me and made no call, Lead was directly across court made no call. I question the Center and he says its not my call. Okay but why was Lead not down the floor(I didnt ask). Three possesion later, the same guy made a call from the center posion (now on opposite side of my bench)in the far corner next to my bench with the Lead 2 feet away saying clean block and the the trail about 20 ft. away giving the tipped ball signal. Thats what looks bad. I dont think the new guys understand primary/secondary. It's bad here on this level, it's very frustrating but its how it is. Hopefully they will gain experience and somewhere along the line get the proper guidance.
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Old Tue Jan 31, 2006, 11:57am
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Re: you are right

Quote:
Originally posted by deecee
i was once a freshman ref -- but some guys (and all associations have them) that arent good officials (believe it or not they are just there for the check) -- and i give slack to the new guys but there are some that i know have 2-3+ years under their belt -- as a coach tell me you would not get mad at the following

...

sit b) how about being told that my player was called for a block because he was stepping back and wasnt set

...

sit c) or one of my techincals
me: why was that last play a turnover when my player got shoved in the back (i said that as a question -- all i wanted to hear was coach i didnt see a shove -- fine with me) instead i get coach you better sit down the rest of the half (6mins left Q2)
me: for what?
ref: T

sit d) same ref who t'd me up there in a previous game (same ref 2 ts) -- block called on one side and charge called on other side by the same ref -- i agreed with the charge -- i asked him why we were called for the block (i asked him a question calmly because i know how i want coaches to address me)
ref: coach ive had enough from you (when this was the first time i asked him a question)
me: why wont you answer my question?
ref: T

sit e) you want more -- i treat ppl how i want to be treated and the times i have blown up at officials is when they

1) fail to simply address a question i have (not a statement)
2) tell me to sit down or shut up or both

...

Sit B) He isn't set - (doesn't have position?), moving backward? Sounds like the block was the easy call - maybe the T for the flop was what you thought was more appropriate?

Sit D - E) I looked everywhere in the rule book and case book and I can't find a spot where it says anything like "Offical must respond to coach's questions, comments and whining." ... maybe that's in rule 13 ...

I think you should "sit down and shutup".
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2006, 12:19pm
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its called

game management -- if a coach ever asks me a question about a call in a respectful manner i answer it -- i will even go over in a dead ball if he calls me over respectfully -- it doesnt say you should answer questions so why do officials answer questions (part of being an official is to have people skills and be able to have communication between your partner, coach, players and game admin).

and this is my first year coaching high school -- unless you know of a varsity program that would hire a first year coach as their varsity coach then please give me a call -- because im sure the first time you ref'd you got the state finals game...

as for stepping back -- if all he did was step back while the offense just ran straight into him that is a charge -- the only reason he fell was because of the contact so no T for flopping and please show me where in the rule book it says one must be set for a charge to be called.
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Old Tue Jan 31, 2006, 12:25pm
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Coach's:
I love what you do and respect it greatly. Thank you for working with our kids. Thank you for teaching them the game of basketball, sportsmanship, competition and other valuable life lessons.

As an official I know NONE of us are perfect. I miss calls, I miss rules interpretations, I make mistakes.

I am not alone with the others that share the basketball floor during a contest with me. They miss shots, they travel, they make turnovers.

What I bring to every game is a comittment to fairness, unbiased and hard work. I hope beyond all things that the players - with the strategy and direction of their coach's - determine the game's outcome. I don't want attention, I want to help produce a fair game within the rules and let talent (on that night) dictate victory.

I want to hear your comments, note your concerns and improve because of them.

What we do is difficult, in a fast environment and subject to tremendous scrutiny. I accept that. I will be better because of it.

You are expected to advocate for your team - and that is a skill of all coach's. I do encourage you to expect and demand the best from every offical crew you are exposed to in yor career - but understand the limits of human error.

What would basketball be like if every player... every coach ... and every official ... were absolutly perfect?

We would all then miss the good old days when the contest was a contest of people, kids, fan's, players, coach's, cheerleaders and parents rooting for their team to persevere in an imperfect contest.

IMO.
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Old Tue Jan 31, 2006, 12:55pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ref Daddy
Coach's:
I love what you do and respect it greatly. Thank you for working with our kids. Thank you for teaching them the game of basketball, sportsmanship, competition and other valuable life lessons.

As an official I know NONE of us are perfect. I miss calls, I miss rules interpretations, I make mistakes.

I am not alone with the others that share the basketball floor during a contest with me. They miss shots, they travel, they make turnovers.

What I bring to every game is a comittment to fairness, unbiased and hard work. I hope beyond all things that the players - with the strategy and direction of their coach's - determine the game's outcome. I don't want attention, I want to help produce a fair game within the rules and let talent (on that night) dictate victory.

I want to hear your comments, note your concerns and improve because of them.

What we do is difficult, in a fast environment and subject to tremendous scrutiny. I accept that. I will be better because of it.

You are expected to advocate for your team - and that is a skill of all coach's. I do encourage you to expect and demand the best from every offical crew you are exposed to in yor career - but understand the limits of human error.

What would basketball be like if every player... every coach ... and every official ... were absolutly perfect?

We would all then miss the good old days when the contest was a contest of people, kids, fan's, players, coach's, cheerleaders and parents rooting for their team to persevere in an imperfect contest.

IMO.
I agree 100%. I feel like my team and I come out and play hard everynight. I expect them to be as near perfect as can be. I also hold the same reguards for myself. Do we as coaches or players always do this?? No way. There have been several games that I wish that I had done things differently. I also expect the officials to do a good job. Myself formerly being an official I know what the job is like. It's very tough. I know when an official makes a bad call, I have been there many times making the wrong call. What I dont understand is how officials who dont know the rules make it onto the court. I never will. Maybe there is a flaw in the system somewhere. It's understandable in lower level games buy JV/V officials should be educated in the game.
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Old Tue Jan 31, 2006, 12:57pm
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refdaddy

thank you for that comment -- that is the exact mentality i would like from the venting i am doing about the officials i have had. all i ask of my players and myself is 100% if a player gives me any less hes on the bench -- if i see an official dogging it unfortunatly i cannot sub him out -- but all i want to hear is a, coach I might have missed that -- ive said that to coaches and players and the real good ones know how the system works and acknowledges that i screwed up and we move on -- its the a$$es that make a big deal about it and i T them up.

in 7 years of officiating i think i have given out maybe 5 techs in games that matter (non adult rec league). I strive to defuse situations with coaches and players and if the moment gets heated sometimes i have had short arguments about what I saw versus what a coach saw but only one time i t'd a coach up because he crossed the line. in rec league games however i could very well have a t every half but i dont care because im not paid to babysit and listen to all their NBA whining.

if coaches ask me repectfully i will answer questions all game if i have to (without slowing down the game), because IMO many coaches too need help below the varsity level (and even some at the varsity level) understanding the rules and the little nuances that unless they read and study the rulebook they will never know or get. Then again im also the ref that talks to the fans and jokes with the kids and the score table because i want to enjoy the games that i do and if im not reffing and smiling then its not worth it to me. you can think what you want about how i handle games but im the first to admit fault to a coach/partner/player and there are plenty other refs that know the rulebook way better than i ever will -- but in all my games ive never had an (non-rec league) ejection / cluster-f#$% / or anything that ended with a "what the hell just happened".
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Old Tue Jan 31, 2006, 12:57pm
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Thumbs up very eloquent, Ref Daddy

If you wrote that off the top of you head, I am in awe.

English teacher or part time poet?
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Old Tue Jan 31, 2006, 01:04pm
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RE: Injured Player

Thank you to everyone for your comments. One last question. If Team A had asked for a time out at the expense of the Technical to keep player A in the game - Then Team B would have received two free throws for the "T" and Team A still would have received their two free throws as well since they were in the BB, is that correct???
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