Injured Player

[Blind & lovin' it]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
[B]

Originally posted by Ref Daddy
... What I dont understand is how officials who dont know the rules make it onto the court. I never will. Maybe there is a flaw in the system somewhere. It's understandable in lower level games buy JV/V officials should be educated in the game.

You get what you pay for ... you convince the AD to put up big bucks for freshman games, and I'm guessing you get top notch officals flying in for you. (you'll have to pay travel expenses as well)

Most refs at all levels are trying to make the right call to the best of their ability - if you have the same problems with all the lower level refs, its either a a cancerous problem in your area, or its you.

[Nate1224hoops]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it
[B]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops

You get what you pay for ... you convince the AD to put up big bucks for freshman games, and I'm guessing you get top notch officals flying in for you. (you'll have to pay travel expenses as well)

Most refs at all levels are trying to make the right call to the best of their ability - if you have the same problems with all the lower level refs, its either a a cancerous problem in your area, or its you.

Or it could be you reading and picking things from my post to which you would like to attack. I do believe that they are doing their best. I also feel like some coaches are doing their best, but we know what that gets them sometimes too dont we..FIRED! I just feel like we as officials often complain that about coaches allowing their players to commit 50 fouls in game and that they should clean it up. Coaches would like officiating to be cleaned up too. As I said I have been on both sides of the fence. I did V for 8 years and worked with mostly good partners. The JV level however is not good around here. We have several officials who really dont understand some of the basics of the game and that isn't acceptable.

As for you snide comments about flying officials in, its JV. And if you would read my post in its entirity would should have seen where I said that I guess it is to be expected!! Or maybe I shouldnt expect the officials to be excellent. Tough calls are going to be missed, happens to everyone, but rules interpretations are a different story. Again you say if I have the same problems with all lower lever refs then....yada yada yada. READ THE POST. I said that we have a few who have no clue. I said that one night we will have a good 2 man crew and then next a bad 3 man.

Free advice, wont cost you anything, ease up on the rude comments until after you have read the complete post, then attack if you feel the need.

[Red_Killian]

Originally posted by scooter1
Thank you to everyone for your comments. One last question. If Team A had asked for a time out at the expense of the Technical to keep player A in the game - Then Team B would have received two free throws for the "T" and Team A still would have received their two free throws as well since they were in the BB, is that correct???

Correct. After the TO, A would shoot the bonus with lane cleared, B would shoot the technicals and then inbound at the division line opposite the table.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally posted by scooter1
Thank you to everyone for your comments. One last question. If Team A had asked for a time out at the expense of the Technical to keep player A in the game - Then Team B would have received two free throws for the "T" and Team A still would have received their two free throws as well since they were in the BB, is that correct???

Yes and no. Yes on the number of free throws. No on the order.

Player A1 shoots two free throws for the double bonus, then Team B shoots two free throws for the technical foul and receives the ball for a throw-in at the division line.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it

Sit B) He isn't set - (doesn't have position?), moving backward? Sounds like the block was the easy call - maybe the T for the flop was what you thought was more appropriate?

Sit D - E) I looked everywhere in the rule book and case book and I can't find a spot where it says anything like "Offical must respond to coach's questions, comments and whining." ... maybe that's in rule 13 ...

I think you should "sit down and shutup".

Blind,

You may want to rethink this whole officiating thing.

First of all, sit B) You'd better check the rule book - moving backwards and being set are not reasons to call a block.

Sit D - E) No you don't have to respond to coaches questions, but you have to ask yourself why you woundn't, especially if, as deecee says, they were asked respectfully.

This game is about the kids. There are times that coaches need to, as you put it, "sit down and shutup," this sounds like a situation when the officials need to "stand-up and be men"!

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

Blind,

You may want to rethink this whole officiating thing.

First of all, sit B) You'd better check the rule book - moving backwards and being set are not reasons to call a block.

Sit D - E) No you don't have to respond to coaches questions, but you have to ask yourself why you woundn't, especially if, as deecee says, they were asked respectfully.

This game is about the kids. There are times that coaches need to, as you put it, "sit down and shutup," this sounds like a situation when the officials need to "stand-up and be men"!

Exactly. Screaming and yelling is one thing, but asking for a rule interpretation in a respectful manner is another. You would have no reason, other than uncertaintly not to explain yourself.

[Blind & lovin' it]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kajun Ref N Texas
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it
[B]

Originally posted by deecee
... This game is about the kids. There are times that coaches need to, as you put it, "sit down and shutup," this sounds like a situation when the officials need to "stand-up and be men"!

The "..." is not meant to exclude what you wrote, just to shorten the amount of space my messages take, as it is an annoyance to scoll through replies to replies to replies. Please know that I read your message in its entirity.

I will concede that I was vague in my block/flop comment earlier. Yes, yes the defender doesn't need to be set - and all that jazz. If it angers, you forget I said it. I'll retract my statement rather than waste space explaining what I meant to say (see my signature).

My comments are influenced by recent events in which I should have T'd a coach (though I'd rather have decked him), and didn't - only to have my consideration spat on later in the game (figuratively). While he is not all coaches he has turned a good season very sour. I give very few T's, I thought that was a good thing - I'm rethinking my stance. An evaluator told me last summer to "T them early, so you don't have to throw them out later" - he's probably right.

Merry Super Bowl week to you all.

[runonmt]

deecee:
Although I frequently read to improve my knowledge, I rarely post on this site. On issues that are actually relative to officiating, someone generally posts what I would have stated (and usually much better) or I am not brash enough to believe my limited experience would add any gravity to the debate. As neither of these conditions has developed with your post about freshman officials, I’m compelled to respond to your comments.

I began officiating to continue my long-term love affair with this game. I played in grade, middle and high school, college and in those infamous adult leagues. I coached all of my kids’ teams in rec, select and AAU leagues. I was also fortunate enough to watch every game that one played at the JV and V level in high school. At 48 I found myself without a game to play, coach or watch and made the move to the “dark side” as an official. I attended clinics and camps, studied the rule and casebooks and did one season of rec ball before doing any high school games. I’m now in my fourth year of working high school games. I provide this information only as a background that I would hope shows a love and good understanding of the game.

I work in a large metro area that has two major officials associations and many, many good officials (most of whom would not know me if I walked up and bit them in the butt). Although I’ve kept myself in very good physical condition I recognize my limitations. Including the normal aging issue, I’ve had a hip replacement and lost speed in my sprint. Consequently, I knew from the start that by the time I had the experience to work varsity level games I'd have few years left and difficulty with the speed of the game at that level. This and my work schedule led me to a decision to do only freshman and JV games. Even so, I continue to do everything I can to improve my rules knowledge and game management skills. I give 100% at every game for the entire 28 minutes and work hard to get the right angles and make the correct calls. Most of the partners I’ve worked with do the same (MANY are varsity level officials who help the assignor fill out the 4 PM games before they pull a 7:30 PM V game).

Here’s my point: There are many decent, competent officials working freshman games. They almost always work hard and get the calls correct the vast majority of the time. In my experience (as an official AND a coach) the problem almost always lies with the coach and players. Rather then coaching and playing (and taking the enjoyment from the game) they fail to recognize THEIR limitations and believe that these games are skilled contests that have the gravity of national security attached to them. At best, the players at this level display some raw skills that need serious development or are just good enough to fill out the roster and will never play another minute after they return their jerseys at the end of the season. As you acknowledged, coaches at this level are also raw and learning. This often leads to games that are sloppy (by high school standards) and very difficult to officiate – usually NOT a result of the quality of the officials. I find it difficult to understand how another official could miss this point.

I’d suggest that you and your players would benefit from a reassessment of your game time hostility toward “poor” officials (I know you say you just ask “questions.” However, I strongly suspect they are not questions – as I have calmly told several coaches – but comments in disguise). Relax a little (you can do that and still have a seriousness of purpose). Don't try and control or critique officials. Get into the game as a coach, help develop players who might have a chance at moving up and make the game fun for the majority who will only get this one shot experience at high school basketball. I guarantee it will make you feel better about yourself and the officiating. It’s also more likely to advance your coaching career then trying to “work” the officials or use them as an excuse for poor games.

(Sorry, I normally adhere to the brevity and content rule but I missed the brevity target on this one.)

[SmokeEater]

My Opinion, Coaches and Players react because of their personal investment to the game at hand. (Probably include fans as well) Usually there is nothing personal meant towards the official and as long as they are not vulgar or rude can be handled appropriately. As a player and coach it is up to them to adapt to the style and level of Officiating they have got at that moment. Complaining only shows the true weakness in their game, and I can't remember the last time I changed my call because I was being berated.

I forgive you coach. LOL

[deecee]

i dont care about the officials getting calls wrong or missing something -- in fact most of my time im trying to make adjustments to my kids --

not once, even in horribly officiated games, have i ever blamed a loss on the refs == the kids know and its a lesson i teach that if we thought the officiating sucked so did the other team so it evens itself out

i have NO hostility towards freshmen refs -- if you read my posts you would see that what annoys me is the lack of officials willing to answer simple questions about rules or close calls i just would like a small explanation (this maybe happens once or twice in a game) -- its not fair for me to put in my 100% expect the same out of my kids and the refs dont seem to be doing the same.

one a similar note -- as an official if i have 2 kids and a coach ask me about XYZ player holding of elbowing and the complaint seems to be legit i will always try and pay a little more attention next time a similar play happens -- if XYZ is doing that and you have been missing it then as an official you need to get on it -- its not that a player or coach is telling you how to do your job its just that we cannot see everything.

to any official who took what i had as an attack on all officials i appologize -- all i said was that at the freshman level (for the most part) you get the lowest level refs/new guys. Its just normal and thats how it works in our association.

as a coach what would you say if your player jumps from the frontcourt and has one foot land in the back court then catches the pass (which originated from the backcourt) and then his other foor hit the front court -- the other coach yells backcourt violation -- The REF stopped the game to explain the backcourt rule -- then we had to inbound which was stolen and i tell the ref that was way out of line what he did and it cost us 2 points and all he could say was "coach its my job that you guys know whats going on" -- yet i ask him a question about a push and he t's me up -- as a coach and as an official what would you say to that?

[Blind & lovin' it]

Originally posted by deecee
i dont care about the officials getting calls wrong or missing something -- in fact most of my time im trying to make adjustments to my kids --

not once, even in horribly officiated games, have i ever blamed a loss on the refs == the kids know and its a lesson i teach that if we thought the officiating sucked so did the other team so it evens itself out

i have NO hostility towards freshmen refs -- if you read my posts you would see that what annoys me is the lack of officials willing to answer simple questions about rules or close calls i just would like a small explanation (this maybe happens once or twice in a game) -- its not fair for me to put in my 100% expect the same out of my kids and the refs dont seem to be doing the same.

one a similar note -- as an official if i have 2 kids and a coach ask me about XYZ player holding of elbowing and the complaint seems to be legit i will always try and pay a little more attention next time a similar play happens -- if XYZ is doing that and you have been missing it then as an official you need to get on it -- its not that a player or coach is telling you how to do your job its just that we cannot see everything.

to any official who took what i had as an attack on all officials i appologize -- all i said was that at the freshman level (for the most part) you get the lowest level refs/new guys. Its just normal and thats how it works in our association.

as a coach what would you say if your player jumps from the frontcourt and has one foot land in the back court then catches the pass (which originated from the backcourt) and then his other foor hit the front court -- the other coach yells backcourt violation -- The REF stopped the game to explain the backcourt rule -- then we had to inbound which was stolen and i tell the ref that was way out of line what he did and it cost us 2 points and all he could say was "coach its my job that you guys know whats going on" -- yet i ask him a question about a push and he t's me up -- as a coach and as an official what would you say to that?

Wow. It cost you 2 points because your kid threw a bad pass.

[deecee]

we lost by 6 -- so unfortunatly those 2 couldve helped

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it

Sit B) He isn't set - (doesn't have position?), moving backward? Sounds like the block was the easy call - maybe the T for the flop was what you thought was more appropriate?

Perhaps you should review what is required to draw a charge.

A player that is backing up (away from the opponent) should never be called for a block unless that opponent was airborne before getting into their path. There is absolutly nothing in any rulebook about being set...all that is required to gain LGP is face the opponent, in the path, and two feet on the floor at some point. If a player is backpeddling, there will be two feet down on nearly every step. You either have a charge or nothing.

[dave30]

I work 10pm-6am at my real job. I work varsity games on my nights off, but plenty of times I work Freshman and JV games starting earlier in the afternoon. A lot of people probably think I'm not good enough for varsity because I'm working those games. I let them think it. Every game is important to the kids playing and I just do the best job I can do, from varsity to 4th grade.