Pre-Game Dunk

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
...the same type of people who would calla 3-second violation on a player with a toe over the lane line.

Would you call an OOB violation on a player with a toe over the boundary line?

[Rich]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Would you call an OOB violation on a player with a toe over the boundary line?

Depends if I'm tableside.

Other than that smart a$$ response, I'll ignore the rest as it's pretty close to a straw man.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Do you ever take the spirit of the rules into account?

Sure do.....and the spirit of the rules say that you can dunk a ball without the ball touching the rim. Seen it myself.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Sure do.....and the spirit of the rules say that you can dunk a ball without the ball touching the rim. Seen it myself.

No, the LETTER of the rules states that. The spirit of the no dunking rule is that we are being asked to protect equipment and eliminate any possible taunting. What is the purpose of whacking a kid who skies above the rim and throws it into the hoop without touching the ring?

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

The other team doesn't DESERVE anything. It's a punitive rule, nothing more, designed to save the equipment. Those arguing that something needs to be called when the ball is thrown down without the player touching the rim sound like the same type of people who would calla 3-second violation on a player with a toe over the lane line.

It could also be considered a rule designed to prevent taunting and showboating. If they were worried about equipment, they'd make dunking in game illegal.

[johnny1784]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

No, the LETTER of the rules states that. The spirit of the no dunking rule is that we are being asked to protect equipment and eliminate any possible taunting. What is the purpose of whacking a kid who skies above the rim and throws it into the hoop without touching the ring?

Something is wrong with your reply but I just can’t put into words to convey a good rebuttal.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Sure do.....and the spirit of the rules say that you can dunk a ball without the ball touching the rim. Seen it myself. [/B]

No, the LETTER of the rules states that. The spirit of the no dunking rule is that we are being asked to protect equipment and eliminate any possible taunting. What is the purpose of whacking a kid who skies above the rim and throws it into the hoop without touching the ring? [/B][/QUOTE]Lemme ask you this then.....

You're the assignor, or the guy from your association who has to receive all the complaints from the schools in your area. You get a written complaint in from a JV coach, also signed by his AD- copy to the league convenor, that an opposing player dunked the ball during pre-game warm-up or half-time. They said that an official definitely saw the dunk, called the player over and talked to him and also went and talked to his coach...but no technical foul was ever called. They stated in the letter that they had witnesses and a video of it also. They wanna know why that rule wasn't enforced because they had received a "T" for a pre-game dunk earlier in the season.

What's your reply, Rich? Or anyone?

Give me a good one, please. Hopefully I can use it in the future because I've had to answer letters similar to that in the past.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

No, the LETTER of the rules states that. The spirit of the no dunking rule is that we are being asked to protect equipment and eliminate any possible taunting. What is the purpose of whacking a kid who skies above the rim and throws it into the hoop without touching the ring? [/B]

Lemme ask you this then.....

You're the assignor, or the guy from your association who has to receive all the complaints from the schools in your area. You get a written complaint in from a JV coach, also signed by his AD- copy to the league convenor, that an opposing player dunked the ball during pre-game warm-up or half-time. They said that an official definitely saw the dunk, called the player over and talked to him and also went and talked to his coach...but no technical foul was ever called. They stated in the letter that they had witnesses and a video of it also. They wanna know why that rule wasn't enforced because they had received a "T" for a pre-game dunk earlier in the season.

What's your reply, Rich? Or anyone?

Give me a good one, please. Hopefully I can use it in the future because I've had to answer letters similar to that in the past. [/B][/QUOTE]

If the kid grabs the rim, I'll make the call. But a gentle throwdown of the ball isn't a taunt and is no danger to the equipment.

This happened to me last season. I just said, "That was no dunk" and walked away. Coach got me at the table when I was looking at the book and wanted to argue the book meaning of the word dunk. I walked away again. I have no association that assigns games -- I get my own games from schools and leagues and they are free not to use me again. But I did end up whacking the guy during the game and I sent a report to the state and they told me I probably should've whacked the COACH pregame when he decided he didn't like my walking away and he tossed a rulebook in my direction.

I assign a 44-team league (baseball) and get calls from people all the time. I got pictures this past season of a slide rule call the one team didn't agree with. I back my officials as long as they aren't being dishonest. We're paid to make judgment calls all the time.

A JV coach sends a letter about a pregame dunk? Pardon my lack of political correctness, but who freaking cares?

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Jan 1st, 2006 at 09:56 PM]

[zebraman]

I'm with Rich on this one. If I see a kid do a "drop dunk" during warm-ups, I'm gonna warn the kid and tell him the next one is a T. If it's a rim rattler, I'm going to start the game with a T.

I had the drop dunk happen last year and the visiting coach asked me if I was going to give a T. I said, "no, the spirit and intent of the rule is to keep from having to cancel games because of bent rims."

The rule isn't because of showboating or they wouldn't allow dunks during games either. The way they protect rims during games is to have a T called if a kid unnecessarily hangs on the rim.

The coach was fine with it, not that I really cared since coaches only care about "the spirt and intent" of rules when it favors them.

Z

[Texas Aggie]

Guys, the pregame dunk rule is not designed to protect equipment. Do you really think those guys don't tear the rims down before and after practice, and in the off season? Not to mention the work its given during games, which is often tougher than what would be faced during pre-game (considering the allowed hanging on, if needed). Today's equipment is manufactured to withstand dunks, including pregame dunks.

The no-dunk rule is designed to prevent injury from those who aren't warmed up properly and may get into a frenzied mentality of "top this" when someone else does it. Whether or not this is or has been a huge problem, at the very least the NF thinks it is.

At the very least, its a dual purpose rule, so the no-rim dunk still warrants a T.

Incidentally, in high school, the players KNOW the rule. Make no mistake about that. I can't tell you how many times I've walked out on the court and heard, "no more dunks." Don't think twice about hitting them up, and if the coach complains, grab a mirror and tell him to look in there.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by Texas Aggie
Guys, the pregame dunk rule is not designed to protect equipment. Do you really think those guys don't tear the rims down before and after practice, and in the off season?

Thanks for reminding me. I worked a Christian College scrimmage earlier this year with a bent rim which occurred during dunking practice the day before.

Around here, calling a drop-dunk as a T is considered looking for trouble. Our "old grouchy assignor" asked us to only call a T for a pregame dunk that grabs the attention of everyone in the gym.

If you want to call a subtle dunk as a T, go ahead. But don't get all high-and-mighty and pretend like you were in on the discussion of why this rule was put into place.

We are all out there to interpret the spirit and intent of the rules. To me, a little drop dunk isn't going to hurt any equipment and it sure isn't taunting. I'd rather just go warn the kid than start the game with a T for such a minor thing. Heck, the case book has a play where a 3-second call is made when a player has one foot in the key. How many of us would call that?

Z



[Edited by zebraman on Jan 1st, 2006 at 11:12 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
[/B]

If the kid grabs the rim, I'll make the call. But a gentle throwdown of the ball isn't a taunt and is no danger to the equipment.

[/B][/QUOTE]What is a "gentle throwdown of the ball"? Dropping the ball from over top of the ring ain't a dunk and never has been. My comment was that you could push or force the ball down, iow, meet the definition of a dunk, without rattling the ring. If you're throwing the ball down, the Laws of Physics say that you're putting some force behind that throw. That act now meets the rulebook definition of a dunk("driving, forcing, pushing"), doesn't it? How is an official supposed to judge when "not throwing hard enough" becomes "throwing too hard" when a player is throwing the ball down?

And how do I then explain to a coach/AD/convenor that the player they're asking about wasn't throwing the ball down hard enough?

Btw, the play of Cropduster's that I commented on said "tried to dunk". Do you agree with Cropduster on that one too, Rich? Ignore it? If so, same question- what can someone reply to a written complaint about it?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 1st, 2006 at 11:20 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by zebraman
If I see a kid do a "drop dunk" during warm-ups, I'm gonna warn the kid and tell him the next one is a T.

What is a "drop dunk"?

If you just drop the ball, it's legal. If you push or force the ball down, no matter how hard, that meets the definition of a dunk and that is illegal. It's gotta be one or t'other.

[Nevadaref]

JR,
The only explanation which I could give you is, "As officials we try to be universal, but we are all individuals."

[zebraman]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

What is a "drop dunk"?

If you just drop the ball, it's legal. If you push or force the ball down, no matter how hard, that meets the definition of a dunk and that is illegal. It's gotta be one or t'other.

A drop dunk... not an official term and I wasn't trying to start a new buzz word!.

I just meant the kind that are pushed down without a lot of zip and the hands don't hit rim so there is no sound other than the net.

Like I said, I have no problem with others calling this as a T.... but it isn't going to be one when I'm the R.

Z