Pre-Game Dunk

[IREFU2]

On the my last of my 3 Xmas Tourneys, we had a pregame dunk. I notified the "R" and he asked me if I actually saw the boy dunk the ball. I told him yes, I saw it and I may have ignored it if he would not have grabbed the rim. So of these kids go above the rim and throw the ball through which techically is dunking. I am glad I reported it to the "R" because there was an evaluator in the stands who had the next game. I say this to say, always be on your p's and q's becuase you never know who is watching. Comments???

[CA BBall Ref]

I don't believe throwing the ball down into the cylinder without touching rim a violation. However if they grasp/touch rim either on a dunk or just out of stupidity it will cost them. Friday night, tourney finals in warm up's a player grasped the rim and another player yanked the net. The result was a T, the coach loosing his box, 5 points for the other team, 2 from the T shots and they opened with a 3 after the throw in to start the game. When the coach was notified of the situation just before the tip his reaction was "Oh that's the way it is going to be, why don't you let the kids play, followed with my player denies that he touched the rim." More coaches are not teaching fundementals to their players and we as refs are not enforcing the required rules. It is not the easiest way to start a game by telling the coach this penalty and it will often make for a tough start. But as you know you never know who is watching. Always go get the easy stuff.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by IREFU2
I told him yes, I saw it and I may have ignored it if he would not have grabbed the rim. So of these kids go above the rim and throw the ball through which techically is dunking.

Originally posted by CA BBall Ref
I don't believe throwing the ball down into the cylinder without touching rim a violation. However if they grasp/touch rim either on a dunk or just out of stupidity it will cost them.

I'll repeat to both of you what has been said in another recent thread. The definition of dunking has nothing at all to do with touching the ring.

RULE 4, SECTION 16 DUNKING
Dunking or stuffing is the driving, forcing, pushing or attempting to force a ball through the basket with the hand(s).

I advise using the definition to determine if it is a dunk or not rather than some made up criterion.

Originally posted by CA BBall Ref
Friday night, tourney finals in warm up's a player grasped the rim and another player yanked the net. The result was a T, the coach loosing his box, 5 points for the other team, 2 from the T shots and they opened with a 3 after the throw in to start the game.

Well at least you punished the team somehow, but I have to say that you missed a T here. There should have been a T on the player who yanked the net too.

10-3-4 . . . Grasp either basket during the time of the officials' jurisdiction, dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball prior to or during the game or during any intermission until jurisdiction of the officials has ended. This item applies to all team members.
EXCEPTION: A player may grasp the basket to prevent injury.
PENALTY: (Art. 4) For dunking or grasping during pregame or intermission, the foul is also charged indirectly to the head coach.

RULE1, SECTION 10 BASKET SIZE, MATERIAL
ART. 1 . . . Each basket shall consist of a single metal ring, 18 inches in inside diameter, its flange and braces, and a white-cord 12-mesh net, 15 to 18 inches in length, suspended from beneath the ring.

Originally posted by CA BBall Ref
When the coach was notified of the situation just before the tip his reaction was "Oh that's the way it is going to be, why don't you let the kids play, followed with my player denies that he touched the rim." More coaches are not teaching fundementals to their players and we as refs are not enforcing the required rules. It is not the easiest way to start a game by telling the coach this penalty and it will often make for a tough start. But as you know you never know who is watching. Always go get the easy stuff.

You're right. Some coaches don't want to discipline their players and then whine and moan when the officials come along and take care of business. After his poor reaction, I definitely would have charged BOTH Ts to his players and two indirects to him.


Good work to both of you guys for actually doing something about this. It is true that you never know who is watching.

[IREFU2]

Well, I knew he dunked and there was no question that it was a T. He know it also and came over to me and apologized. I told him, he needed to apologize to his coach. Of course the coach went crazy asking questions and he said this was a "great" way to start a game. He also asked it he could get a warning and I told him I am warning him now to let his players know "if" they dunk again, he will be in the parking lot!

[Nevadaref]

IREFU2,
I like the effort that you are making to enforce the rules and do a quality job out there.
I'm dinging you a little bit on your precision with the rules in the hope that you will be even sharper. If you are going to deal with this stuff, then you might as well get it exactly right, huh?

Originally posted by IREFU2
I told him yes, I saw it and I may have ignored it if he would not have grabbed the rim.

It was this statement that made me include you in my above post even though you know the real definition. You even wrote such in your original post. I'm advising you not to ignore based upon ring contact. As JR says, you have no rules basis for this and doing it this way could really come back to bite you sometime.

Originally posted by IREFU2
I told him I am warning him now to let his players know "if" they dunk again, he will be in the parking lot!

Actually, his players would have to dunk TWICE more before he would be in the parking lot. He gets DQ'd on the third indirect T, not the second.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by CA BBall Ref
I don't believe throwing the ball down into the cylinder without touching rim a violation.

Do you always call a game by what you believe as opposed to what the rules actually say?

Just wondering.

[IREFU2]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
IREFU2,
I like the effort that you are making to enforce the rules and do a quality job out there.
I'm dinging you a little bit on your precision with the rules in the hope that you will be even sharper. If you are going to deal with this stuff, then you might as well get it exactly right, huh?

It was this statement that made me include you in my above post even though you know the real definition. You even wrote such in your original post. I'm advising you not to ignore based upon ring contact. As JR says, you have no rules basis for this and doing it this way could really come back to bite you sometime.

Actually, his players would have to dunk TWICE more before he would be in the parking lot. He gets DQ'd on the third indirect T, not the second.

Thanks, I just hate when this happens, it starts the game of on a bad note. Coaches need to make sure they are teaching their kids the correct rules...etc....

[WinterWillie]

Originally posted by IREFU2
Comments???

Anecdotal: I was doing a boys high school varsity scrimmage in December when player A on the home team had a break away in which I was the lead. He went to the hoop and used a layup to put the ball in. As we ran back down the court, I asked him why he didn't dunk the ball, I told him if he had, he would have brought the house down. He said he should have. After the game, I told him he didn't dunk it because he couldn't dunk (He is about 6'3" tall). He assured me that he could. We both laughed.
Two days later, I had this same team in a regular schedule game. In the pregame warmups, player A (the 6' 3" from the same team) dunked the ball. I assessed the technical foul.

[cropduster]

In a recent jr high game a kid tried to dunk at half time. It was a blow out game, both coaches were very laid back, and no one from the stands reacted when he did it. I was sitting on bottom row of bleachers across court from the table and called him over and asked him to sit down next to me. I then told him that what he just did was a tecnical foul and from the reaction on his face could tell he had never heard it before (or he should get an Emmy). I explained the rule and he promised not to do it again. As the game was about to be restarted his coach subtly thank me and I noticed his big starter sitting on the bench for the first few minutes of second half.

I know some will say I should have stuck him so he would not forget. Some will say let it go because it had no impact. I chose to let it go with a warning and in same situation would handle it same way again.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by cropduster

I know some will say I should have stuck him so he would not forget.

Yup, that's exactly what I would say. I would say that you were completely wrong to do that. I would say you're deliberately ignoring a very-plainly written rule. I would say that you unfairly cost the other team 2 free-throws and a possession by trying to be Mr. Nice Guy. I would also say that you just gave about 20-something other players in that game free license to dunk at half-time too-- after all, if you allow it for one player, then you haveta allow it for all players. That's called being consistent and fair.

I surely would like to be in the stands when 20 different kids line up in a dunkathon at half-time while you're sitting there. You'd deserve every single dunk of it too.

Btw, if I was evaluating you that day, you'd be getting a lot of experience in JV games. I'd be afraid to recommend that you do any higher levels than that.

[devdog69]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, that's exactly what I would say. I would say that you were completely wrong to do that. I would say you're deliberately ignoring a very-plainly written rule. I would say that you unfairly cost the other team 2 free-throws and a possession by trying to be Mr. Nice Guy. I would also say that you just gave about 20-something other players in that game free license to dunk at half-time too-- after all, if you allow it for one player, then you haveta allow it for all players. That's called being consistent and fair.

I surely would like to be in the stands when 20 different kids line up in a dunkathon at half-time while you're sitting there. You'd deserve every single dunk of it too.

Btw, if I was evaluating you that day, you'd be getting a lot of experience in JV games. I'd be afraid to recommend that you do any higher levels than that.

Jeez...did you miss the fact that it was a JH game and not the state championship? I'd sooner give up officiating than work for a crabby old assignor that has forgotten that the game is about the kids on the floor and the life experiences that being involved brings and not on that precious little rulebook. Happy New Year!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by devdog69

Jeez...did you miss the fact that it was a JH game and not the state championship? I'd sooner give up officiating than work for a crabby old assignor that has forgotten that the game is about the kids on the floor and the life experiences that being involved brings and not on that precious little rulebook. Happy New Year!

You're missing my point, Dev. When I see someone ignoring a very plainly written rule that every coach, player and fan in the free world damn well knows is a rule, then I see an official who is simply afraid to take care of bidness. They look for excuses to not make a call and then try to justify doing so. To be quite honest, yes, as an assignor I'm afraid to put those guys in a higher level game that means something because I'm not sure what else they'd choose to ignore. If you wanna work with partners like that, hey, be my guest.

It's not a matter of being crabby per se. It's a matter of me having my own opinion. And I think that I'm entitled to my opinion, just as you are to your's.

Happy New Year!

[devdog69]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

You're missing my point, Dev. When I see someone ignoring a very plainly written rule that every coach, player and fan in the free world damn well knows is a rule, then I see an official who is simply afraid to take care of bidness. They look for excuses to not make a call and then try to justify doing so. To be quite honest, yes, as an assignor I'm afraid to put those guys in a higher level game that means something because I'm not sure what else they'd choose to ignore. If you wanna work with partners like that, hey, be my guest.

It's not a matter of being crabby per se. It's a matter of me having my own opinion. And I think that I'm entitled to my opinion, just as you are to your's.

Happy New Year!

Agreed. We can disagree, no problem there. I just happen to believe that we ignore or choose not to penalize hundreds of rules violations during any given game and do so based on our experience and perception of lots of things including level of play, time on clock, score of game, etc. I can't imagine anybody whacking a JH kid at halftime of a blowout game because he tried to dunk. This, imho, is what we, in education, refer to as a teachable moment and was handled perfectly in this particular setting. Change the parameters, score, level, atmosphere may change the call...to me this is part of our purpose, i.e., to facilitate a fair and enjoyable environment for a game. I can recount more times that I made a call that was technically correct (e.g. T'd up a 7th grade girl for swinging elbows a few years ago and she cried the rest of the game) which I wish I would have handled differently than I can remember calls in which I used my experience to make the appropriate call based on the unique situation.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Do you always call a game by what you believe as opposed to what the rules actually say?

Just wondering.

Do you ever take the spirit of the rules into account?

[Rich]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, that's exactly what I would say. I would say that you were completely wrong to do that. I would say you're deliberately ignoring a very-plainly written rule. I would say that you unfairly cost the other team 2 free-throws and a possession by trying to be Mr. Nice Guy. I would also say that you just gave about 20-something other players in that game free license to dunk at half-time too-- after all, if you allow it for one player, then you haveta allow it for all players. That's called being consistent and fair.

I surely would like to be in the stands when 20 different kids line up in a dunkathon at half-time while you're sitting there. You'd deserve every single dunk of it too.

Btw, if I was evaluating you that day, you'd be getting a lot of experience in JV games. I'd be afraid to recommend that you do any higher levels than that.

The other team doesn't DESERVE anything. It's a punitive rule, nothing more, designed to save the equipment. Those arguing that something needs to be called when the ball is thrown down without the player touching the rim sound like the same type of people who would calla 3-second violation on a player with a toe over the lane line.