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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 10:50am
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Quote:
Originally posted by cmathews
however if it occurs after the player catches it, and I believe it does, then you need to move it to mid court, and this is where the definite knowledge comes in, decide how much time is on the clock..if you had a count at 3 from the OOB play when the player touched it, then the buzzer goes off, you then know of at least 3 seconds of time that was running when it shouldn't be...set it at 3 give them the ball at midcourt and go...
As I said in the response to the other post, you wouldn't have a count going when the ball was caught at center. The 5-second throw-in count ended when the ball left the thrower's hand(s) on the throw-in.

There's still no definite knowledge available to take exact time off the clock and then give possesssion at center.
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 11:49am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by cmathews
however if it occurs after the player catches it, and I believe it does, then you need to move it to mid court, and this is where the definite knowledge comes in, decide how much time is on the clock..if you had a count at 3 from the OOB play when the player touched it, then the buzzer goes off, you then know of at least 3 seconds of time that was running when it shouldn't be...set it at 3 give them the ball at midcourt and go...
As I said in the response to the other post, you wouldn't have a count going when the ball was caught at center. The 5-second throw-in count ended when the ball left the thrower's hand(s) on the throw-in.

There's still no definite knowledge available to take exact time off the clock and then give possesssion at center.
What if we're smart enough to anticipate the clock foul up & keep a count going between the time the ball is released & the time the buzzer sounds?

Then what?
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 12:05pm
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you do have knowledge

Quote:
Originally posted by tmp44
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by cmathews
I am not sure that you can correct this. The definite knowledge in this case is not the 4.1, but the time elapsed when the player caught the ball...I do think if you correct it you move it to half court and put up the difference of 4.1 and what your 5 second count was up to assuming you had one going...if it was at 3 when the buzzer went off and there should have been little to no time run off I would go with 3 seconds at midcourt...However with all that said if the buzzer goes off before the player touches it I agree 100% with JR, put it at 4.1 and run the endline boys...
The 5-second throw-in count would end as soon as the ball was released by the thrower towards the court on the throw-in.
Good point JR...this kills any definite knowledge here because once you stop the count when the ball is thrown, you have no knowledge as to how long the ball was in the air.
You have the knowledge of how long you had the count for, if it was at 2 when it was released then you go with 2 seconds....I do agree that if you can possibly convince yourself and/or others that the buzzer went off in the air, by all means do so and put 4.1 on the clock and go...if however it was clearly after he caught it, the only definite knowledge you have is the counts you might have been administering...
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 01:13pm
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Re: Re: I am not so sure

Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by cmathews
The definite knowledge in this case is not the 4.1, but the time elapsed when the player caught the ball...I do think if you correct it you move it to half court and put up the difference of 4.1 and what your 5 second count was up to ...
Mathews -- the clock wasn't running during the throw-in. So there should have been 4.1 when the player at mid-court caught the ball. If the buzzer sounded right as that player was catching, a do-over is within the rules...

... unless you want to have another 12 page thread complete with MTD heading up to the attic and roto-rootering out another 50 years worth of old rule books from 9 different organizations!


WILL IT NEVER END??


B1 makes the second of two free throws. A1 throws the inbounds pass to A2 who catches A1's inbounds pass at the division line. The game clock starts when the ball is touched by or touches A2. PERIOD!! It does not matter if the game clock was incorrectly started and the game clock horn's sounded before or as A2 was catching A1's inbounds pass; the sounding of the game clock's horn does not stop play. Only the officials can stop the play in this situation. A1's inbounds pass to A2 is not negated by the fact that the game clock was started incorrectly. Team A receives the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot that A2 caught A1's inbounds pass and the game clock is set at 4.1 seconds.

We can debate whether the game clock should be set at 4.1 seconds or 3.8 seconds per the NBA/WNBA rule, but since NFHS and NCAA does not use the NBA/WNBA rule, the game clock must be set at 4.1 seconds.

This play is not a do-over. I REPEAT: This play is NOT a do-over.

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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 01:36pm
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Here we go. The over/under is 4 pages, I got $5 on over.



  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 01:40pm
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is this a conflict of interest???

Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref

Here we go. The over/under is 4 pages, I got $5 on over.



Hey Dan,
since you are involved in the thread, isn't it a conflict of interest to be involved in the over under bet?? Oh wait sorry I will go post this in the moral question thread.....my bad
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 01:50pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref

Here we go. The over/under is 4 pages, I got $5 on over.



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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 02:18pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[/B]
This play is not a do-over. I REPEAT: This play is NOT a do-over.

[/B][/QUOTE]There is no rules basis to support the above statement. I REPEAT: There is no rules basis to support the above statement.

If you ever find a rule that will support your fantasy and negate R5-10, Mark, please cite it.
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 02:27pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by cmathews
[/B]
You have the knowledge of how long you had the count for, if it was at 2 when it was released then you go with 2 seconds....I do agree that if you can possibly convince yourself and/or others that the buzzer went off in the air, by all means do so and put 4.1 on the clock and go...if however it was clearly after he caught it, the only definite knowledge you have is the counts you might have been administering... [/B][/QUOTE]And the count you were administering was 2 seconds plus an indeterminate, unknown amount of time the ball spent in the air after it left the thrower's hands until the horn went. You do not have definite knowledge of that exact time the ball was in the air from the cessation of your count until the sounding of the horn. If the ball was caught, you also don't have any exact knowledge of how much time it took to catch the ball until the horn then sounded either. That's why you cannot use R5-10 in this case and place the ball at center. That has always been the flaw in MTD Sr's argument.
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 02:31pm
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JR, I don't disagree that there is not exact knowledge, but the two seconds or whereever the count was, is the closest thing to definite knowledge that you have...Again I say if you can reasonably say that the horn went off in the air then bring it back and go with 4.1 and repeat, but my assertation is that if it is obviously after the catch you have to go with the time you definitely know should not have come off the clock....and the only thing you can know is that the count you were at is the time that should not have come off the clock...if it is 2 seconds that is your definite knowledge, if it is 1 then that is it...Like I said it isn't exact knowledge, but it is definite.
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 02:33pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref

Here we go. The over/under is 4 pages, I got $5 on over.


I'll take the under.

And, to summarize: Depending on how you read the rules / cases, there either is or is not rules support for almost anything you might or might not do.
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