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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2005, 04:30pm
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I guess what bothers me about your response

Is sort of an arrogant tone, like the management of the game is not a cooperative... win-win situation, it is a dictatorship.

Clearly there are times (almost always, actually)when decisions must be rendered by an official... quickly and decisively.. and not wait for input. But in this case, if both coaches and (presumably) game management are on the same page, why go against the rest of the team that you rely on to help you administer a smooth game?

I am still waiting for a logical answer as to why you wouldn't allow it. You just say it is a judgement call, and you would judge "no". I am interested in the REASONS why you would render that judgement. You did say you don't think the kids need it, but the coaches, who know their kids better than you think they do, in this matter I believe their judgement may be more valid than yours.

In the end you are correct that it is a judgement call, but I am just wondering WHY you would go against both coaches and (presumably) game management.

read your own tag-line... you may be correct, but not right.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2005, 06:33pm
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I'm going to agree with Rut on this.

While I would likely give a short warm-up period, there certainly is no requirement to do so, and it is completely at the discretion of the referee.

As to lawsuits, it's the players' responsibility to be prepared to play - not mine.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2005, 11:25pm
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While I agree that this is at the official's discretion, I can't possibly see anything to be gained by refusing the request. It's an obviously extra-ordinary circumstance. I'd like to see some reasons for refusing this, other than "because it's my call."
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 16, 2005, 03:32am
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rotationslim,

When you work your games you can do what you want to. When I work my games I can do what I want to. That is what it boils down to. I do not have to trust your opinion and you do not have to trust mine. That is the reason. No one has told me anything but their opinion. No rule, just opinion. No reason other than what they personally think is best and no rule to back it up. If that is not good enough for you, so be it. This has nothing to do with authority or needing to be in authority. I do not need a situation to know what my role is as an official.

Peace
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 16, 2005, 08:31am
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Kinda funny we have this discussion and last night had VG falling to the floor, yadda yadda yadda, she stays down and coach says she's had back probs. EMS takes her out on a stretcher. All this takes 25 minutes and we give a 3 minute warmup. Both Coaches, AD, Asst Principle and both of us Officials thought it was a good idea. In this situation, it would have seemed unsportsmanlike on the officials to say no to warmup.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 16, 2005, 10:36am
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Again

Rut, we are just pressing you for your reason for countering what the rest of the adults responsible for a smooth game, coaches, (presumably) game management to rule "no warmup".

No one has doubted your authority to deny the warmup.
It has been established that rules allow a referee to rule either way on this.

So the question is this, what is your REASON for going against the coaches on this matter?

Would you be concerned about the game finishing on time?
Would you not want the fans to be bored watching them warmup?
Would you be concerned that both teams warming up would somehow give one team a competitive advantage?

Your lack of any logical reason leaves me thinking you would say "NO" just because you can. That kind of arrogance, if this is in fact the reason, leads to some of the worst kind of officiating.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 16, 2005, 12:09pm
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Re: Again

Quote:
Originally posted by rotationslim
Rut, we are just pressing you for your reason for countering what the rest of the adults responsible for a smooth game, coaches, (presumably) game management to rule "no warmup".

No one has doubted your authority to deny the warmup.
It has been established that rules allow a referee to rule either way on this.

So the question is this, what is your REASON for going against the coaches on this matter?

Would you be concerned about the game finishing on time?
Would you not want the fans to be bored watching them warmup?
Would you be concerned that both teams warming up would somehow give one team a competitive advantage?

Your lack of any logical reason leaves me thinking you would say "NO" just because you can. That kind of arrogance, if this is in fact the reason, leads to some of the worst kind of officiating.
As we used to say when I was in college, "Save the drama for your mama."

Peace
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 16, 2005, 12:35pm
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I get it...

It's your game; not the players, and you're the boss and don't have to justify anything to anybody because you wear a striped shirt.

It is attitude like that that gives refs a bad rap.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 16, 2005, 01:33pm
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Exclamation Actually you never did.

Quote:
Originally posted by rotationslim
It's your game; not the players, and you're the boss and don't have to justify anything to anybody because you wear a striped shirt.

It is attitude like that that gives refs a bad rap.
rotationslim,

I have tried to keep this based on the issue, but I have to take the gloves off a bit. First of all you do not know me. You know nothing about me. The only thing you know about me is what I decide to tell you. This for the record is really not that much. You do not know anything about my ability as an official, nor do you understand the kind of respect I have in my area with officials and coaches that I come in contact with.

You sound like an official that is influenced by whatever a coach or player wants. So if the coach wants you to not call certain things do you do it? Remember your logic is that you do what the coaches want you to do, without any rule any other consideration. I have been working for a long time, mostly at the varsity level. I have almost never had both coaches and AD all agree on everything that takes place. I have been in situations where coaches agree, but the AD (or both ADs) has a different opinion. This past spring during the baseball season, my regional was the very last one to play because the two schools could not agree when to restart the championship game. This is not much of a different situation. I have seen coaches complain about all kinds of things over the years and the officials have to decide what to do in the end. That is why we are paid and what the rules allow. If you think there needs to be a warm-up, what time is it acceptable and what is not acceptable. If you have a 10 minute delay (for whatever reason) do you advocate a warm-up? Does that time change when you have 12 minutes of delay? What about 16 minutes?

All I stated is that I personally do not see a point for a warm up period. Basketball is not football where collisions are a regular part of the sport and playing in the elements is also a factor. Basketball is played in a controlled environment. I do not see multiple players cramping up in basketball games where we have to stop the game for several minutes before we can play. That happens all the time in football and we easily might delay the game for 15 to 20 minutes for a game and for some reason we do not give a "special warm-up period" when an injury is taken care of. But in your logic, the only way players can "get ready to play" is by shooting baskets and running drills to get ready to play. I know that when halftime ends it is not uncommon for teams to not even shoot baskets and come out right before the second half starts. All I said is I did not see a point for it. That does not mean I could not be convinced. That does not mean a situation could not change my opinion. I just stated I do not see a point for it. Having been in that situation before (for some reason I have not heard you say anything about your experience with this kind of situation ). In my situation there was no outcry for a warm up period. If anything the coaches wanted to start the game up as soon as possible. Now maybe if we are waiting for an hour or everyone had to go outside for a fire alarm, then that would change things. But remember we are talking about an injury, not those other kinds of situations.

The bottom line is you do not know me. Don't you dare tell me what I think about the game and my job as an official. You probably could not hold my jock on the basketball court and probably do not have the respect I have earned working games over the years. I am not paid to make everyone happy, none of us are. Our job is to make decisions that many times might be unpopular or when everyone cannot agree on. Every situation does not come in a nice cardboard box with a ribbon on it. Sorry, but that just is not the real world. But then again, you seem to have no since of what that means.

Peace
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 16, 2005, 03:02pm
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I have tried to keep this based on the issue, but I have to take the gloves off a bit. First of all you do not know me. You know nothing about me. The only thing you know about me is what I decide to tell you. This for the record is really not that much.

WRONG, YOU CHOOSE TO TELL US MORE ABOUT YOU THAN ALMOST ANY OTHER POSTER. YOU HAVE THE LONGEST SIGNATURE ON THIS BOARD, I AM OBVIOUSLY SUPPOSED TO BE IMPRESSED WITH ALL YOUR AFFILIATIONS, ETC.

You do not know anything about my ability as an official, nor do you understand the kind of respect I have in my area with officials and coaches that I come in contact with.

PERHAPS YOU DO, BUT PERHAPS THE LEVEL OF RESPECT THAT IS AFFORDED YOU HAS GONE TO YOUR HEAD, AND NOW BELIEVE YOU ARE KING OF THE GYM, AND YOU WORD IS GOD'S WORD AND ABOVE REPROACH. YOU STILL HAVE GIVEN NO REASON FOR YOUR DECISION TO RULE THE WAY YOU DID. STILL NOT A THREAD OF LOGIC IN WHAT YOU SAY OTHER THAN... "BECAUSE I SAID SO"

You sound like an official that is influenced by whatever a coach or player wants.

IF A COACH WANTS SOMETHING THAT IS AGAINST THE RULES... OR IN MY JUDGEMENT WILL GIVE HIM UNFAIR COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE, NO ABSOLUTELY NOT. IF BOTH COACHES (AND PRESUMABLY GAME MANAGEMENT) WANT SOMETHING THAT IS MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL TO BOTH TEAMS AND THE GAME IN GENERAL, YES I WOULD ABSOLUTELY TAKE INTO ACCOUNT WHAT THE COACHES ASK FOR, AS LONG AS IT IS WITHIN THE RULES.

So if the coach wants you to not call certain things do you do it?

THATS JUST SILLY AND COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THIS, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A JUDGEMENT CALL ON SOMETHING THAT IS NOT COVERED IN RULES.

Remember your logic is that you do what the coaches want you to do, without any rule any other consideration.

IF THE GYM WAS EXTRA NOISY, AND FOR WHATEVER REASON I WAS NOT GETTING MUCH VOLUME OUT OF MY WHISTLE, AND A COACH RESPECTFULLY ASKS ME TO BLOW IT A LITTLE LOUDER SO HIS PLAYERS COULD HEAR, I WOULD BE HAPPY TO TRY TO ACCOMADATE. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT. YOU DEMAND RESPECT FROM COACHES AND PLAYERS, IT IS NOT UNREASONABLE TO RETURN THE RESPECT AND HONOR BENIGN REQUESTS THAT ARE FOR THE GOOD OF BOTH TEAMS.

I have been working for a long time, mostly at the varsity level. I have almost never had both coaches and AD all agree on everything that takes place. I have been in situations where coaches agree, but the AD (or both ADs) has a different opinion. This past spring during the baseball season, my regional was the very last one to play because the two schools could not agree when to restart the championship game. This is not much of a different situation.

THIS IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SITUATION, THAT ONE IS CONTROVERSIAL, THIS ONE IS COMPLETELY BENIGN, AND ONLY BECOMES CONTROVERSIAL WHEN A REFEREE WOULD REFUSE TO AFFORD A LITTLE RESPECT TO THE COACHES AND PLAYERS AND ALLOW THEM 5 MINUTES TO WARM UP.

I have seen coaches complain about all kinds of things over the years and the officials have to decide what to do in the end. That is why we are paid and what the rules allow. If you think there needs to be a warm-up, what time is it acceptable and what is not acceptable. If you have a 10 minute delay (for whatever reason) do you advocate a warm-up? Does that time change when you have 12 minutes of delay? What about 16 minutes?

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT SETTING A POLICY, OR A GUIDELINE, WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, I AM TALKING ABOUT THIS ONE INCIDENT, ONE WHERE IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE TO ALLOW THE WARMUP, AND YOU STILL HAVE YET TO BRING UP EVEN ONE SINGLE SOLITARY REASON WHY IT MAKES SENSE TO DENY THE REQUEST OTHER THAN... "BECAUSE I SAID SO". I USE THAT ON MY KIDS ALL THE TIME... IT DOESN'T GO OVER VERY WELL.

All I stated is that I personally do not see a point for a warm up period. Basketball is not football where collisions are a regular part of the sport and playing in the elements is also a factor. Basketball is played in a controlled environment. I do not see multiple players cramping up in basketball games where we have to stop the game for several minutes before we can play. That happens all the time in football and we easily might delay the game for 15 to 20 minutes for a game and for some reason we do not give a "special warm-up period" when an injury is taken care of. But in your logic, the only way players can "get ready to play" is by shooting baskets and running drills to get ready to play. I know that when halftime ends it is not uncommon for teams to not even shoot baskets and come out right before the second half starts. All I said is I did not see a point for it. That does not mean I could not be convinced. That does not mean a situation could not change my opinion. I just stated I do not see a point for it. Having been in that situation before (for some reason I have not heard you say anything about your experience with this kind of situation :rolleyes. In my situation there was no outcry for a warm up period. If anything the coaches wanted to start the game up as soon as possible. Now maybe if we are waiting for an hour or everyone had to go outside for a fire alarm, then that would change things. But remember we are talking about an injury, not those other kinds of situations.

I HAVE NOT HAD THIS KIND OF GAME SITUATION. BUT SAYING I DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO COMMENT ON IT BECUASE I HAVE NOT BEEN IN THE SITUATION IS LIKE SAYING YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE A VARSITY REFEREE IF YOU DID NOT PLAY VARSITY BALL.

The bottom line is you do not know me.

CORRECT, AND I HAVE ONLY COMMENTED ON WHAT SEEMS LIKE AN ARROGANT ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE GAME THAT I HAVE SEEN EXHIBITED IN YOUR POSTS ON THIS TOPIC. YOU MAY BE MOTHER TERESA FOR ALL I KNOW.. BUT IN THIS OPEN AND HONEST EXCHANGE OF IDEAS.. I FEEL YOU COME OFF AS ARROGANT... BUT YOU HAVE YET TO PUT FORTH ANY GOOD REASONS FOR YOUR POINT OF VIEW OTHER THAN... "BECAUSE I SAID SO, AND I HAVE BEEN AROUND HERE A LONG TIME AND REFFED A LOT OF GAMES"

Don't you dare tell me what I think about the game and my job as an official.

NO COMMENT ON ANY OF THAT, JUST AN ARROGANT TONE TO THIS POST.

You probably could not hold my jock on the basketball court and probably do not have the respect I have earned working games over the years.

LIKELY

I am not paid to make everyone happy, none of us are. Our job is to make decisions that many times might be unpopular or when everyone cannot agree on.

BUT IN THIS CASE EVERYONE DID AGREE... THATS WHY YOUR DECISION SO PUZZLES ME.

Every situation does not come in a nice cardboard box with a ribbon on it. Sorry, but that just is not the real world. But then again, you seem to have no since of what that means.

NOT SURE WHAT THAT LAST LINE MEANS.


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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 16, 2005, 03:57pm
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One man's arrogance is another man's confidence. I know I'm sticking my neck out here, but I'm going to have to agree with JRut. There is nothing in the rules that allows or demands a warm-up period after a delay. I believe that's his rational. So as an official, we must be confident in our rules knowledge, and get the game going as soon as possible. Remember, he did say he could be convinced otherwise, so I don't think he's opposed to it ever happening, just not as a regular occurance. We certainly wouldn't allow a warm-up period for the guy that comes in at the end of the game - after all, he's been sitting there for a longer time doing nothing. I sure hope we aren't out there telling a team that they HAVE to warm up at the end of halftime so we don't get sued. Don't get caught up in non game-related issues. We need to have the confidence to run the game as it was intended.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 16, 2005, 04:22pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
1) There is nothing in the rules that allows or demands a warm-up period after a delay. I believe that's his rational. So as an official, we must be confident in our rules knowledge, and get the game going as soon as possible.

2) We need to have the confidence to run the game as it was intended.
1) There is nothing in the rules that forbids a warm-up period after a delay either. That's up to the official's judgement. "Confidence in rules knowledge" applies equally well to both sides of this argument.

2) Confidence to run the game as who intended? As you intended? Rotationslim's opinion is just as valid as your's and Rut's on this one. You're representing your opinion as being fact. It isn't. Neither can Rut's or rotationslim's opinion be considered as fact either. All of you are just arguing your own opinions. It's simply up to the official on the spot to make the decision as best as he can. No more- no less.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 16, 2005, 05:07pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
1) There is nothing in the rules that allows or demands a warm-up period after a delay. I believe that's his rational. So as an official, we must be confident in our rules knowledge, and get the game going as soon as possible.

2) We need to have the confidence to run the game as it was intended.
1) There is nothing in the rules that forbids a warm-up period after a delay either. That's up to the official's judgement. "Confidence in rules knowledge" applies equally well to both sides of this argument.

2) Confidence to run the game as who intended? As you intended? Rotationslim's opinion is just as valid as your's and Rut's on this one. You're representing your opinion as being fact. It isn't. Neither can Rut's or rotationslim's opinion be considered as fact either. All of you are just arguing your own opinions. It's simply up to the official on the spot to make the decision as best as he can. No more- no less.
I'm not trying to say my opinion is fact. But my opinion is it is better if you can back up your decision with a specific rule, case, state interp, etc. What do you tell a coach who says "I'm ready to play now" while the other team wants a warm-up? If we stay away from trying to do things that aren't included in the rules, we keep ourselves out of unnecessary trouble. If one coach wants a warm-up, and the other doesn't care, go for it. It's common sense. It's just one of those non game-related issues that are best left alone, if possible.

As far as running the game as it is intended, I guess I'm talking about the rules committee of whatever level you are in. If they had intended for there to be a warm-up period after a delay, there would be some mention of it in the rules. If we are talking about what I intend for the game, I would get rid of those damn baggy shorts that go below the knees...
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 16, 2005, 05:20pm
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I feel bad I condoned and contributed to a flame war, I appologize to all, while it is a common internet practice, it is beneath this group.

As the old (politically incorrect) saying goes, getting to an argument on the internet @@@@@@

[Edited by mick on Feb 16th, 2005 at 08:41 PM]
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 16, 2005, 07:38pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
[/B]
I'm not trying to say my opinion is fact. But my opinion is it is better if you can back up your decision with a specific rule, case, state interp, etc.
[/B][/QUOTE]I agree with that. The problem is that you can't back up your decision in this particular situation, whatever it might be, with a specific rule, case, state interp, etc. Rut can't back up his decision by rule either. That doesn't make either of you wrong.It makes both of you right.

See what I'm getting at?
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