0 or 00

[totalnewbie]

True, there is no substitute for experience. But thinking things through ahead of time and trying to have a clear personal philosophy to fall back on is something I use when I try cases. I like to be squared away and dialed up. So I work through situations like this in my mind so that if it happens I have atleast simulated what I would do. It makes my reaction better and cleaner and more immediate.

[totalnewbie]

Now that I think about it, I am the one sitting here getting all the s*** and I didnt even call the T!!! All I was doing was wanting to talk about it.

Nevada, get back in here! Dont tell me you havent been reading this and laughing while the newb takes the beating...

Clark

[bigzilla]

Well, you apparently suffer from the same odd desire to analyze the event before it happens that I do. I will be driving along, lost in thought, and my wife will say "what case are you arguing?" And she is always right. She never says it and I happen to be daydreaming about vacation. Apparently I make odd facial jestures during my non-verbal delivery of the best darn closing arguments a jury has yet to hear.

As to basketball, I read posts on this board, look at the facts given, and think about what I would have done. And I tevo all the college games, and go back and watch the calls, rewatch the questionable ones in slo-mo, look for the positoning of the ref, etc. If he was wrong, why was he wrong? I look for reasons other than poor judgement, such as could he have been in a better position, did he get straightlined, did he call across the lane, out of his area, etc.? I would submit that it is more helpful to look at someone else's real game actions, and why they occurred, rather than to try to figure out what you would do in a situation that you imagine in your head. There are just too many variables that can't all be accounted for in an imaginary situation that coulda-woulda-shoulda played a part in your call in real life. So, I use other people's games to try to prepare for my own. I also try to get copies of my own games tapes and have someone critique me. Most teams will do this for you (around here anyway) if you provide them a blank tape and an SASE.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by totalnewbie
Here is a question for you, if you dont like the 0 and 00 issue: would you T a player with "04" on his or her jersey, since that is not a legal number?

I already addressed this question in the post you replied to.

"00 is widely used in many sports. It is the same thing as 0. Having said that, 04 is the same number 4. It's just simply not used. If it ever came into use, I'm sure the NF would address it. I would not T 00 or 04, AS THEY ARE THE SAME AS 0 AND 4!!!!!! You shouldn't T 04 anymore than you would T 00. So get over that and let's move on."

You're attempting to apply the rule to legalisticly in a situation that doesn't affect the game in the least. Call this T if you like but in the end, all you do is end up looking like a plumber.

[TriggerMN]

This is a freaking joke. Of course it's a T. 0 and 00 are specifically stated by the rule book to be different numbers. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say 04 or 02 or any double-digit number starting with 0 is legal.

Next you will be telling me that A1 is wearing 23, but has 32 listed in the book, and the guy filling in the book is dyslexic so no T is to be warranted.

Good call, Nevada. Don't let the so called "experts" tell you any different.

[Kelvin green]

Originally posted by totalnewbie


One problem though with a few posts. We are not calling a foul on "04" we are calling a foul on "4". "04" is not a legal number.

Clark

My situation was what if the team submits a lineup using software that requires an 04 to place it in proper order (most databases require) and 04 was written in the book, but the player has a proper #4 on his jersey. Would you call this a T?

No way No How!

[TriggerMN]

Considering one should always check the book before the 10 minute mark, I'd explain to the coach that he has 04 in the book, but 04 is not a legal number, so he had better get it changed. Not a big deal if you're taking care of your pregame business.

Whatever software a team is using doesn't matter to me. Having the book correct does.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
This is a freaking joke. Of course it's a T. 0 and 00 are specifically stated by the rule book to be different numbers. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say 04 or 02 or any double-digit number starting with 0 is legal.

Next you will be telling me that A1 is wearing 23, but has 32 listed in the book, and the guy filling in the book is dyslexic so no T is to be warranted.

Good call, Nevada. Don't let the so called "experts" tell you any different.

What if the line up handed to the scorer had 23 listed as 23, and the scorer entered it as 32, you going to T for that?

[Kelvin green]

So are you telling me that having 04 in the book and 4 on his jersey is a T?

So if Kevin Greene is listed in the book but the name is really Kelvin Green that you are going to whack them because they could not read or cant spell?

Where would this nonsense end?

Give me a break- Common sense says let this go!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
So are you telling me that having 04 in the book and 4 on his jersey is a T?

So if Kevin Greene is listed in the book but the name is really Kelvin Green that you are going to whack them because they could not read or cant spell?

Where would this nonsense end?

Give me a break- Common sense says let this go!

See what I mean, Kelvin?

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
This is a freaking joke. Of course it's a T. 0 and 00 are specifically stated by the rule book to be different numbers. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say 04 or 02 or any double-digit number starting with 0 is legal.

Next you will be telling me that A1 is wearing 23, but has 32 listed in the book, and the guy filling in the book is dyslexic so no T is to be warranted.

Good call, Nevada. Don't let the so called "experts" tell you any different.

Hey Trigger. Riddle me this: If they are different numbers why is it not legal to have 0 and 00 used in the same game? Because it confuses people!!!!! It's kind of like sending a kid out of the game because his shirt is not tucked in when all you have to do is ask him to tuck without leaving. Use some common sense man. No Tee.

[TriggerMN]

Like I said, if the referee is doing his job, there will be no number 04 in the book at the 10 minute mark, because NFHS rules do not allow 04 as a legal number. Therefore, the referee will have the coach correct it. If the coach refuses, it's a T for an illegal number.

Rule 2.4.5 states that one of the referee's duties is to verify with the coach that his team member's uniforms and equipment are legal. It doesn't say anything about the names. Numbers are required on ALL uniforms; names are not.

[TriggerMN]

Gordon--> You'd have to ask the NFHS why both numbers are not allowed. I don't make up the rules, I just enforce them to the best of my ability. I'll say it again...check the book and the 04 problem never comes up.

[totalnewbie]

Which goes back to my very first post on this thread:

It appears that the rule book contemplates that 0 and 00 are allowable but that no team may have both.

The question becomes: is the reason for "no 0 and 00" because the rules contemplate them as the same number?

If so, then there is no T since 0 and 00 are the same number.

If not, then the rules view them as different numbers and the player is not wearing a proper number as reflected in the book and its a T.

And subsequent analysis that one could argue the rules consider them different numbers.

This is a two step analysis and people just want to jump to the end. The steps are:

1. Is it a T?
--if yes, go to step 2; if no, you call nothing.
2. If a T, do you call it?
--this is the judgment part

You can have a discussion about step 1 even if you agree that at step 2 you wouldnt call it.

As for typographical errors, that is a different issue. Here Nevada's issue was 0 was on the roster provided, 0 is in the book. Not a typo. Not entered incorrectly. Not misspelled. And 00 is on the jersey.

Again, I am not saying call the T or not. I havent had this situation and am a newbie. But I like the discussion, particularly as to the judgment part of part 2.

Clark

[Kelvin green]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
Like I said, if the referee is doing his job, there will be no number 04 in the book at the 10 minute mark, because NFHS rules do not allow 04 as a legal number. Therefore, the referee will have the coach correct it. If the coach refuses, it's a T for an illegal number.

Rule 2.4.5 states that one of the referee's duties is to verify with the coach that his team member's uniforms and equipment are legal. It doesn't say anything about the names. Numbers are required on ALL uniforms; names are not.

But 4 on the jersey is a legal number and the coach refuses to change 04 in the book to 4 so you T him up. I'd like to see that in the rule.

The player is playing with a legal number and we whack him because the number in the book is some how illegal and does not match the shirt. I would really like you to explain that to a coach who spent thousands of dollars on the scorekeeping software and then got it approved by the State Association that somehow he is illegal and anybody with single digits that on the compute show up with a 0something is illegal.


I am quoting NCAA here but it is similar to NFHS
---Section 3. Lineup
Art. 1. Before the 10-minute mark is reached on the game clock that iscounting down the time before the start of the game, each team shall supply the scorers with:
a. Names and uniform numbers of squad members who may par-ticipate,and those of the five starting players.

As I said before this is tanatamount to having a spelling mistake cause a T because for some reason the name is not right!
Lets whack them because I cant spell Coach K's last name! It has to be perfect. It says names have to be submitted, names dont have to be on the jerseys but the names have to be right since they have to match the player on the floor.

Does this mean that I have to have first and last name? Do I need only last one. Do I need middle initials?

The rule book says NAMES and numbers so it is plural... Does this mean the names of all the players who MAY participate? or does it mean multiple names of players players who MAY participate?

So then the next question is who is the one that grants the MAY particpate. Does each player walk up to the ref and ask? May I participate? and we say yes? or does that mean each poetntial player?

Like I said before where does the nonsense end?