0 or 00

[ShadowStripes]

Please, for the love of God, do not call a technical foul here. How many times do you have to hear the phrase, "Don't put $#@& into the game..." Can a decent argument be made that the often vaguely worded rulebook would allow for a T in this instance? Of course, but as previously stated, good officials use common sense, and good supervisors and commissioners as well as good coaches appreciate officials using common sense. While you may make a technical argument for issuing the foul, the spirit and intent of the rules would be to fix this matter in the scorebook without penalty and move along.

[totalnewbie]

This is interesting. In addition, it is also very hyper-technical. So it makes sense to me (as a totalnewbie) that people would just fix and move on even if we believe there is an argument for a T.

One problem though with a few posts. We are not calling a foul on "04" we are calling a foul on "4". "04" is not a legal number.

Each team member shall be numbered on the front and back of the team jersey with plain Arabic numerals. The following numbers are legal: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 00, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 20...

If a person entered with 04 on their jersey, that would be a player T for an illegal number (as opposed to an administrative T for an error in the book or roster, since no legal roster could include an illegal number).

As for those saying 0 and 00 are the same, it seems the text of the rule disagrees. Note, that by the same logic 000 would be the same number. But that is not listed as a legal number. So the rule specifically provides that 0 and 00 are different numbers and are both legal, but that both may not appear on the same roster. The rule DOES NOT say they are the same number and in fact goes out of its way IMHO to say they are not the same.

But all that aside, the guys saying fix it and move on seem to share the opinion of most of the refs I work with. Its like not calling the T for rosters not being in by 10 minutes. If it takes until 9 minutes for it to happen then no big deal. If someone gripes the ref says "coach we would have given you the same leniency."

So for those who said "no T" was that (a) "I dont believe it is a T at all" or (b) "it is probably a T but I am not calling that just like I wouldnt T someone for being 30 seconds late with the roster or some other hyper-technical thing."

And, does it matter it was a V game with playoff implications. Does that change how you handle it?

I can see an argument either way for that: (a) this is varsity level, these are the best coaches, it has been all season now, there is no problem holding them to the highest standard, (b) it is a silly paperwork issue that I am not going to let decide a game of this much importance when it can be fixed with the stroke of a pen by adding a 0.

Clark

[JRutledge]

You can be a rulebook official and call everything by the rule. Or you can be an official that uses a little bit of common sense. The good officials use common sense. We are not going to see a player with "04" in reality. If you do you better be careful how you apply that rule. I worked a game this year where an urban team had blue jerseys for their varsity team. One of the players wore white shorts which were not in lock step with the rules nor the team. We did nothing. I can take a wild guess that the school could not afford the proper jersey for this one player. Of course you could give T this action, but will it be respected by everyone watching.

You can be a rulebook official and apply all the rules to the letter like coaches box, bench decorum, and every bookkeeping violation to the letter, but it will not make you a very popular official. I realize the coach wants to get a break, but I am sure he gets one when he complains about your calls or when he steps out on the court and does not realize it. I know I do not T up coaches for just a foot outside of the box. I just tell them to get back in. Well if the number is wrong as it relates to 0 and 00, I am just going to have them change it and move on. I really think any good official or respected official is going to try to avoid this kind of T for this particular reason. It is totally different if the number was another number. But even then I am not going to give a T just for what is in the official book. I am going to give a T for what information was given to the scorekeeper.

Peace

[Smitty]

It is amazing that it has taken 5 pages of posts (so far) to try and figure out if mixing up 0 and 00 in the book would be a T. Is there no common sense among those who would ring a team up for this? I would be embarrassed to work with someone who T'ed up a team for this.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by totalnewbie
This is interesting. In addition, it is also very hyper-technical. So it makes sense to me (as a totalnewbie) that people would just fix and move on even if we believe there is an argument for a T.

One problem though with a few posts. We are not calling a foul on "04" we are calling a foul on "4". "04" is not a legal number.

If a person entered with 04 on their jersey, that would be a player T for an illegal number (as opposed to an administrative T for an error in the book or roster, since no legal roster could include an illegal number).

Newbie, you need to read more and write less.

00 is widely used in many sports. It is the same thing as 0. Having said that, 04 is the same number 4. It's just simply not used. If it ever came into use, I'm sure the NF would address it. I would not T 00 or 04, AS THEY ARE THE SAME AS 0 AND 4!!!!!! You shouldn't T 04 anymore than you would T 00. So get over that and let's move on.

Good grief! Too many ****ing plumbers on this forum.

[totalnewbie]

Hey dont get mad at me. I'm just discussing someone else's post and I said over and over again that I would love to hear people's opinions on this and that I am a newbie. All I am doing is citing the rule and trying to analyze it.

For me, learning to draw the line is an important part of my growth. That's why I am interested in this discussion. If you're not, great. I dont care that much about the coaching box. If the coach steps out a bit, big deal. I dont care about getting the roster to the book by 10 minutes since in all honesty I am usually working the 3rd game and they probably only put 10 minutes on the clock since the game is 5 minutes behind start time anyway so most people only get the roster to the book well past the 10 minutes. I'm not T'ing that. All I want is my scorer and timer to have what they need in time to start the game in a timely fashion and not have to feel rushed. If they are happy, I am happy.

I agree that being overly scrupulous does not a good official make. But what is the rationale to when you do or do not enforce? That is what I was trying to talk about.

I like this issue because it seems to be a T in a high stakes game. Some people mentioned being a popular official. Is that the standard? I can tell you one guy you would be popular with--the opposing coach whose team actually managed to follow the rules. I guess I never thought popularity was the key. Heck, I havent been popular yet. Both teams hate your calls until one team wins, then the winning team only likes you because they won.

I wonder what NevadaRef's partner said about the call.

It seems to me that the rules clearly make 0 and 00 different numbers so you COULD T it. What I want to know is do you T it and if not why not. So "no and shut up" posts arent that helpful. But then again it isnt your job to help me if you dont want to or to discuss it if you dont want to.

As for 00 being used in lots of sports, great. We're not talking about lots of sports. We are talking about basketball and the rules specifically define legal numbers. If you dont care about this issue, thats cool. Buit 'hey, its used in lots of other sports' doesnt answer the question here.

And according to the rules, 04 is not the same as 4. 4 is a legal number, 04 isnt.

And as for me reading more and writing less, I dont think you are going to be satisfied with my answer on that one . I read the rule. I wrote about the rule. I was asking for experienced guys to give me their take on my analysis. I intend to continue doing that. I guess "read more write less" isnt really that helpful. But thanks anyway

Here is a question for you, if you dont like the 0 and 00 issue: would you T a player with "04" on his or her jersey, since that is not a legal number?

Clark

[Back In The Saddle]

I would not T this. If asked why, I would tell the coach that 0 and 00 are both zero. He may not like the answer, so what? He won't like a lot of things I do tonight.

The real reason, for me anyway, lies in the definition of the game. Basketball is a game played between two teams of five players. It is not a game played between two coaches looking to twist esoteric points of law into freebie scoring opportunities.

[bigzilla]

I would not give a T. My reasoning can be found in what has been discussed as the "best quote" of the Violet article...paraphrased as best I can remember: within each black and white rule are a thousand shades of gray, and one can make a technically correct call and be totally unfair.

All night long you will use your judgement to determine what is and what is not a violation or foul. Some you will know are technically a violation, but you pass on it. From the time you take the court...it is all judgement...discretion...the flow of the game...the style of the game. What a coach says at one point might result in a T, but saying the same thing at a different point would not. The only things black and white are the rules and our shirts. Enforcing them is not. My wife has a poster that says: "The rules are just ink on paper. Without us, they are easily bent and broken. We relish the challenge of using them to craft a game fairly played." That sums it up to me.

As I can see absolutely no way that the 0-00 number can be determined to be an advantage or disadvantage to the teams, nor can it have an impact on the outcome of the game (unless I make it possible by calling a T) I see no violation, and I call no T.

[totalnewbie]

Now that is an excellent post. Thanks! In it you stated your philosophy on why you do or do not call the T. I agree that this is about as nit picky as you can get. I'm trying to develop a consistent personal philosophy on calls and this was really helpful.

Clark

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by totalnewbie


I like this issue because it seems to be a T in a high stakes game. Some people mentioned being a popular official. Is that the standard? I can tell you one guy you would be popular with--the opposing coach whose team actually managed to follow the rules. I guess I never thought popularity was the key. Heck, I havent been popular yet. Both teams hate your calls until one team wins, then the winning team only likes you because they won.

It is a slippery slope. Once you start giving Ts based on a very narrow black and white interpretation (and you have yet to show us any interpretation other than your experience which is not that vast at this point) you now might be expected to call other things that are black and white. First of all I know you are not going around giving Ts or calling every violation in a technical way. Now it is not really about being popular, but it is about being respected. A coach is going to wonder what other things you are going to call to the letter if you start trying to prove to him or her you passed the test. At the very least if you are going to be technical, have something that suggests you apply the rules that way.

Originally posted by totalnewbie
It seems to me that the rules clearly make 0 and 00 different numbers so you COULD T it. What I want to know is do you T it and if not why not. So "no and shut up" posts arent that helpful. But then again it isnt your job to help me if you dont want to or to discuss it if you dont want to.

I could call every touch of a ball handler a foul, but many coaches or evaluators do not want that kind of call. Officiating is not that much different than being a judge sitting on the bench. We keep our jobs by having our decisions or rulings accepted. If our rulings are not respected, it does not matter how right we are, but we might lose our job because our decisions are constantly questioned.

Originally posted by totalnewbie
As for 00 being used in lots of sports, great. We're not talking about lots of sports. We are talking about basketball and the rules specifically define legal numbers. If you dont care about this issue, thats cool. Buit 'hey, its used in lots of other sports' doesnt answer the question here.

And according to the rules, 04 is not the same as 4. 4 is a legal number, 04 isnt.

And as for me reading more and writing less, I dont think you are going to be satisfied with my answer on that one . I read the rule. I wrote about the rule. I was asking for experienced guys to give me their take on my analysis. I intend to continue doing that. I guess "read more write less" isnt really that helpful. But thanks anyway

I can tell you if that is the best you can come up with, you would not be working very much where I lived. At least that does not happen at the big time. Where I live common sense is valued big time. I have never seen a jersey with "04" on it. But I have seen some jerseys that did not follow the rule to the letter and officials do not give Ts for them. I remember a sophomore team that had no front jersey numbers. Well according to the rule you have to T up every player that is not properly equip. The officials did the right thing and let it go. It would have been a disaster if they took your logic and just followed the rulebook. The school was an inner city school and did not have other jerseys. The object is to allow the kids to play, not do everything to make it more difficult. Would you start the game with 5 Ts because this team did not follow the letter of the rules? What if the opponent wanted the Ts?

Originally posted by totalnewbie
Here is a question for you, if you dont like the 0 and 00 issue: would you T a player with "04" on his or her jersey, since that is not a legal number?

Clark

I have already said where I stand. All you have to do is read the rest of this post and you have your answer.

Peace

[totalnewbie]

JR-

Thanks for the reply. Look, dont mistake my devil's advocate position and request for feedback as me saying I love that T. I dont.

I am trying to find the personal philosophy for why I do or dont pass on a T.

We'll probably all agree on this: if it is in the book as a foul or violation, it should be called, particularly if advantage/disadvantage is gained.

Now not a single one of us, I would imagine, actually does this. We all use our discretion. Which is what we are supposed to do.

Heck, I passed on 10 travels last game alone and a some silly hand contact by girls that cant play good defense. And the book didnt have starters 10 minutes before and I didnt T that up either. And when a girl used hands on a cutter I didnt ring her up. Instead I said "watch the hands 32" because the pass didnt come down into the paint it went across the perimiter. No advantage/disadvantage. And at the end of the game when the girl grabbed an arm or waist to take a foul and put the otehr team on the line I said it was close enough to playing the ball and I called a regular foul, not an intentional.

But what are YOUR personal parameters of that discretion? I am trying to find mine. That is why I want feedback on this.

I like the idea of making sure you make calls that are respected so that when things get tight and you have to make a tough charge call on the home team you can make it and it will be recieved right and that way the focus is oon the game and not your calls. I get that. But where do you draw that line? How do YOU balance the need to have your calls respected with the need to make the right calls?

Clark

[bigzilla]

It must be that we are both attorneys! I once said in one of our association discussions that the specific rule overrides the general rule, and everyone about fell out, except for the other attorney in the group. He just nodded.

If the coach asked me for a T, and asked why I wasn't going to enforce it, I would simply tell him what I have said about advantage in the earlier post, and would add that I wasn't calling it for the same reason I wasn't going to T him up the first time he rose from his chair to shout out an offense or a defense.

[tarheelcoach]

I can tell you that if a ref T'd me (or the other team) up for this, it would be one of the games where I shake my head, sit on the bench, and know it's going to be a LONG day!

On the other hand, if the other team made this mistake, and the ref explained to me what happened, I'd laugh it off and say "Let's go jump."

I just can't see a coach having a problem with a ref working to fix the problem instead of penalizing the kids for a minor clerical error.

[totalnewbie]

I think we need you to give a seminar to some of the other coaches then

I can already envision 3 coaches I have had in my short experience who I guarantee would be jumping up and down over this. I like BiTS's explanation:

"Coach, basketball is a game played between two teams of five players. It is not a game played between two coaches looking to twist esoteric points of law into freebie scoring opportunities. This is a clerical issue and I am fixing it."

Clark

[bigzilla]

You had posted while I was typing. As to finding personal parameters, I think that just comes with games and experience. Some things that I called my first year I would not call now. Some things I wouldn't have called my first year I would now. And I think it applies to every area..fouls, violations, game managment, player management, coaches interaction. It is no different than any other job you do in that way. The longer you do it, the more fine tuned you become, the more confident you are, both of which can lead to the more respect you will be given. I think any of the most experienced guys on this board would tell you that what and how they called their first years does not approach what and how they call ten years later.

When I am watching a college game on TV, and see a coach having an anuerism on the sideline, and the ref just calmly talking to him, it drives the point home for me. If that was happening to a first year ref, he would be either wetting himself or he would be hammering out the T's. And here is this ref looking like nothing at all is going wrong. A rookie couldn't manage a coach like that. That is experience, and there is no substitute.