two questions

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by lrpalmer3

B's field goal points are wiped away because they were erroniously awarded, another correctable error.

How were the B field goal points erroneously awarded? How is this another correctable error?

R2-10-5--" Points scored, consumed time and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error shall not be nullified".

[Forksref]

If the timer knew that there were 2 FT's, why did the clock start after the first one?

[scyguy]

Do not know about clock, was not there. If I am officiating, then I know it is a two shot foul. However, lets say the situation is that the rebound from the first FT flys into the hands of his airbourne teammate, who quickly returns it for a basket. I cannot get air in my whistle before the "shot" comes out of the hands of the teammate. Even though the ball goes through the basket as I am blowing the whistle, I could not see myself awarding the basket. Since it is a two shot foul, the ball is still dead!! The ball could not become live unless the shooter misses his second shot. Since the ball is still dead, I can easily correct the error, if you want to call it that.

My original question was answered, but only because the ball became live when it was given to the inbounding player. Anything that happened prior to that could be corrected, because the two shot foul implies a dead ball until after the second shot.

[lrpalmer3]

This raises an interesting question: was the ball ever live? In a 2-shot situation, the first shot is missed, rebounded by a player, and put in the basket. The opposing team grabs the ball and inbounds it. At what point was the ball live? What if the officials are still standing in position to administer the second free throw? Even if the officials move down the court, is the ball really live?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by scyguy

My original question was answered, but only because the ball became live when it was given to the inbounding player. Anything that happened prior to that could be corrected, because the two shot foul implies a dead ball until after the second shot.

Nooooooo! Lah me, the ball NEVER became dead after the free throw missed!!!!

The correctable error was not giving team A their second merited free throw. That can be corrected under Rule 2-10-1(a)- failure to award an unmerited free throw- but only if the error is caught in time, as per Rule 2-10-2. As per the rule that I quoted above- R2-10-4, anything else that happened after the free throw was missed can NOT be corrected. Quite simply, there is nothing in the rules that will allow you to wipe out B's basket, and R2-10-4 very specifically says that you can't wipe out B's basket! On a free throw, the ball becomes live when an official places it at the disposal of the free thrower. In this case, when the free throw missed, the ball remained live and the clock legally started when B rebounded the missed FT. The ball is now live up until the time that B made their field goal; then the ball became dead when it cleared the bottom of the net on that made goal. Now, you can only correct the original error of not awarding the second FT if you catch it before the ball next becomes live again--which is when an A player picks it up for their throw-in. Once the ball is at team A's disposal for that throw-in, the ball becomes live again and it is too late to go back and give A their missed second FT. But no matter what, you can't cancel anything else that happened between the original missed FT by A and the time that you do end up stopping the game to check- and that includes B's basket. If you read the case book play that I cited- 2.10.1SitB, it might clear that up for you. Note in that play, the field goal counts.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 14th, 2004 at 07:05 PM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Nooooooo! Lah me, the ball NEVER became dead after the free throw missed!!!!

The correctable error was not giving team A their second merited free throw. That can be corrected under Rule 2-10-1(a)- failure to award an unmerited free throw- but only if the error is caught in time, as per Rule 2-10-2. As per the rule that I quoted above- R2-10-4, anything else that happened after the free throw was missed can NOT be corrected. Quite simply, there is nothing in the rules that will allow you to wipe out B's basket, and R2-10-4 very specifically says that you can't wipe out B's basket! On a free throw, the ball becomes live when an official places it at the disposal of the free thrower. In this case, when the free throw missed, the ball remained live and the clock legally started when B rebounded the missed FT. The ball is now live up until the time that B made their field goal; then the ball became dead when it cleared the bottom of the net on that made goal. Now, you can only correct the original error of not awarding the second FT if you catch it before the ball next becomes live again--which is when an A player picks it up for their throw-in. Once the ball is at team A's disposal for that throw-in, the ball becomes live again and it is too late to go back and give A their missed second FT. But no matter what, you can't cancel anything else that happened between the original missed FT by A and the time that you do end up stopping the game to check- and that includes B's basket. If you read the case book play that I cited- 2.10.1SitB, it might clear that up for you. Note in that play, the field goal counts.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 14th, 2004 at 07:05 PM]

Preach it, brother! Are you working on doing warm-up for the Rutnucci show?!

[Robmoz]

Originally posted by scyguy
our JR coach came to me this morning with two unusual situations in his game last night. First one, Team A was fouled, it was the 10th foul so he was supposed to shoot two FT's. However, after the first FT, a member of Team B, got the rebound and shot and made a basket. Our coach began to yell at the officials, who were at this point inbounding the ball to his team, that the FT shooter was supposed to shoot two FT's. Once our coach got the attention of the officials, the ball had already been inbounded, and taken into the forecourt. The official then agreed that there should of been two FT's, but said he could not correct it. My question is--should the basket been nollified and the players returned to the FT line for the second FT?

Please help me on this one......

Is this sitch presented correctly? How did B1 get the rebound and shoot; wasn't he at A's basket lined up for FT number 1? Are you saying that he shot at A's basket or that he dribbled all the way back to his basket and shot?

[lrpalmer3]

Rule 6.7.2.a.

The ball becomes dead when it is apparent the free throw will not be successful on a free throw which is to be followed by another free throw.

Can't you argue that the ball was never live for A to rebound it and score? Even if Team B grabs the made shot and inbounds it, can't you sat that the ball was never live? Just because players inbound a ball and dribble up the court, the ball is still dead right? First dead ball, correct the error.

[scyguy]

no, I miss stated the original situation. It was the same team member that rebounded as had shot the FT.

Thanks for your explanation, I will have to absorb it abit to fully appreciate it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by lrpalmer3
Rule 6.7.2.a.

The ball becomes dead when it is apparent the free throw will not be successful on a free throw which is to be followed by another free throw.

Can't you argue that the ball was never live for A to rebound it and score? Even if Team B grabs the made shot and inbounds it, can't you sat that the ball was never live? Just because players inbound a ball and dribble up the court, the ball is still dead right? First dead ball, correct the error.

Wrong. See above. You have no rules justification to back up your arguments. The ball would have been dead if there was no correctable error involved. Unfortunately, there was a correctable error involved.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 15th, 2004 at 01:07 PM]

[lrpalmer3]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
[B]

Originally posted by lrpalmer3
Rule 6.7.2.a.

"The ball becomes dead when it is apparent the free throw will not be successful on a free throw which is to be followed by another free throw."

That is a quote from the rule book. The ball becomes dead when the free throw misses.

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lrpalmer3
[B]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

That is a quote from the rule book. The ball becomes dead when the free throw misses.

That rule does NOT apply to a correctable error situation. It applies to normal situations where there was NO error made.

Are you trying to tell me that you would completely ignore R2-10-5 by using that logic, and thus cancel B's basket? Good luck to you!

Btw, have you read casebook play 2:10:1SitB yet? Maybe you should write the FED too and tell them that they got that one wrong also when they allowed the basket. What's your comment on that case book play? It completely contradicts your whole argument to date.

[scyguy]

ok, I need help on this one. Lets back up and I will walk through this and see if I understand. Kid gets fouled, ball is dead on foul call. Ball becomes live when given to FT shooter (this is why you have a 10 secound count). Ball remains live until a basket is made. If FT is successful, ball is dead until it is returned to FT shooter, when it becomes live again. If FT shooter misses shot, ball remains live.

How about this situation, a foul is called on Team B. Before you realize, you inbound ball to Team A, then the scorers table buzzes, as Team A advances ball upcourt, telling you that the foul was the 7th team foul on Team B. Even though a stoppage of play occurs, you cannot award FT's to team A since you have already inbounded ball. So, you inbound ball to Team A at the nearest point the ball was located when stoppage occurred. Correct??

[lrpalmer3]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Btw, have you read casebook play 2:10:1SitB yet?

2.10.1 Sit B clearly says that you are right, and I'm glad you brought it up. I got confused by the rule that says that the ball should have been dead, so I was ASKING if that rule can be used to correct the error. It is obvious from this case play that it cannot.

Like I said JR, thanks.

[rwest]

Originally posted by scyguy

How about this situation, a foul is called on Team B. Before you realize, you inbound ball to Team A, then the scorers table buzzes, as Team A advances ball upcourt, telling you that the foul was the 7th team foul on Team B. Even though a stoppage of play occurs, you cannot award FT's to team A since you have already inbounded ball. So, you inbound ball to Team A at the nearest point the ball was located when stoppage occurred. Correct??

I don't think so. The rule states that you have until the next dead ball after the clock has started to correct the error. In this case the ball became dead and the clock was stopped at the foul. The error ocurred when the official gave the ball to Team A to inbound the ball. At that time the clock was stopped. So I believe you have until the next dead ball to correct it. Once the ball becomes live after that its too late. So I would award the FT's.