two questions

scyguy · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 14, 2004, 10:00am

our JR coach came to me this morning with two unusual situations in his game last night. First one, Team A was fouled, it was the 10th foul so he was supposed to shoot two FT's. However, after the first FT, a member of Team B, got the rebound and shot and made a basket. Our coach began to yell at the officials, who were at this point inbounding the ball to his team, that the FT shooter was supposed to shoot two FT's. Once our coach got the attention of the officials, the ball had already been inbounded, and taken into the forecourt. The official then agreed that there should of been two FT's, but said he could not correct it. My question is--should the basket been nollified and the players returned to the FT line for the second FT?

Second situation, kid for Team B shoots at the WRONG goal, but as he is shooting, a member of Team A fouls him. The official called a shooting foul and had the player of Team B go to the other end and shoot two FT's. Correct?? Seems to me that it is a foul, but how can it be a shooting foul when the kid is shooting at the wrong goal.

Jurassic Referee · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 14, 2004, 10:09am

Quote:

Originally posted by scyguy
1) First one, Team A was fouled, it was the 10th foul so he was supposed to shoot two FT's. However, after the first FT, a member of Team B, got the rebound and shot and made a basket. Our coach began to yell at the officials, who were at this point inbounding the ball to his team, that the FT shooter was supposed to shoot two FT's. Once our coach got the attention of the officials, the ball had already been inbounded, and taken into the forecourt. The official then agreed that there should of been two FT's, but said he could not correct it. My question is--should the basket been nollified and the players returned to the FT line for the second FT?

2) Second situation, kid for Team B shoots at the WRONG goal, but as he is shooting, a member of Team A fouls him. The official called a shooting foul and had the player of Team B go to the other end and shoot two FT's. Correct?? Seems to me that it is a foul, but how can it be a shooting foul when the kid is shooting at the wrong goal.

1) The official was correct. It's too late to correct the error.

2) It's a foul, but it's not a shooting foul. They got this one wrong.

roadking · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 14, 2004, 10:17am

can you give specifics why it is not correctable, i understood a FT mistake was a correctable as long it is caught by the first dead ball?

gordon30307 · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 14, 2004, 10:24am

Quote:

Originally posted by roadking
can you give specifics why it is not correctable, i understood a FT mistake was a correctable as long it is caught by the first dead ball?

Once the goal was scored the ball was dead.

Jurassic Referee · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 14, 2004, 10:27am

It can only be corrected before the first live ball after the the clock started. The clock started on the missed FT. The first dead ball occurred when team B scored after they rebounded the missed FT and then then shot. The ball became live again when it was at the disposal of team A for the subsequent throw-in. Too late. See case book play 2.10.1SitB.

JohnBark · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 14, 2004, 10:27am

especially since the coach was telling the officials it was a 2 shot foul. and correcting a free throw situation is a correctable error under the 5 correctable errors.

so, why can't your correct it?

JohnBark · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 14, 2004, 10:30am

i guess in this situation there is no way for the coach to stop play. especially since it happened so quickly, there really is no way to correct this error in this situation. however, i would have thought since he was yelling at the officials, that it should have been corrected.

scyguy · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 14, 2004, 10:56am

this leads me to a dumb question--every time a goal is scored the ball is dead. However, my confusion is the relationship between a running clock and a dead ball. The clock can be running but we can have a dead ball, correct? Must be because every basket that is made, we maintain a running clock unless we have a timeout, foul, etc.

bob jenkins · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 14, 2004, 11:01am

Quote:

Originally posted by scyguy
this leads me to a dumb question--every time a goal is scored the ball is dead. However, my confusion is the relationship between a running clock and a dead ball. The clock can be running but we can have a dead ball, correct? Must be because every basket that is made, we maintain a running clock unless we have a timeout, foul, etc.

Live / Dead ball and Stopped / Running clock are two different things.

You can have a live ball with a stopped clock, a live ball with a running clock, a dead ball with a stopped clock and a dead ball with a running clock.

The coach needed to get the official's attention (perhaps by visiting the scorer's table) before the ball became live after B's basket.

scyguy · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 14, 2004, 11:07am

thanks Bob, I hestitated to ask that question because it seemed so obvious, but maybe people equate all dead balls resulting in a stopped clock. Thanks

Mark Dexter · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 14, 2004, 11:22am

With the first situation, the ball is live once it's at the disposal of the inbounder. Your best bet is to tell your players (may be tough to do so) to get away from the ball - that way it doesn't become live.

As for the second situation, it can't be a "shooting" foul, but if B is in the bonus, the player will shoot 1+1 or the 2 bonus shots. No offense to your player, but if A1 is fouling on an attempt at his own goal, the B player deserves free throws.

Now - to throw in a theoretical monkey wrench - team B rebounds, scores a basket, then grabs the ball for the throw-in and scores again (a la the "specific unsporting act" detailed in 10.1.8). We cancel the basket, charge B with a technical foul, and put time back on the clock, but can you say that the ball was never live and go back and correct the free throws?

roadking · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 14, 2004, 01:21pm

ok, i understand the first dead ball situation. lets say the official catch the error once team B makes the field goal. correct me if im wrong, count B field goal, go back to the line for A to shoot last FT. live ball if missed.

rwest · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 14, 2004, 01:54pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnBark
especially since the coach was telling the officials it was a 2 shot foul. and correcting a free throw situation is a correctable error under the 5 correctable errors.

so, why can't your correct it?

It is one of the 5 correctable errors, however, the time to correct it has expired.

bob jenkins · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 14, 2004, 03:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by roadking
ok, i understand the first dead ball situation. lets say the official catch the error once team B makes the field goal. correct me if im wrong, count B field goal, go back to the line for A to shoot last FT. live ball if missed.

Consider yourself corrected.

Since there was a change of posession, resume from the POI

lrpalmer3 · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 14, 2004, 03:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by roadking
ok, i understand the first dead ball situation. lets say the official catch the error once team B makes the field goal. correct me if im wrong, count B field goal, go back to the line for A to shoot last FT. live ball if missed.

B's field goal points are wiped away because they were erroniously awarded, another correctable error.