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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 22, 2004, 03:04pm
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Cool

Hey hows it going...

I am an avid college basketball fan in the heart of tobacco road. I found this site last year and thought about posting then, but thought better of it.

Unfortunately my team was dismissed from the tourney (prematurely!!! :-p ). I guess at that time of year this place gets a lot of "baiters" making noise. And I didnt want to come off as sour grapes or whatever... so I decided to wait until the start of this year.

I'm here because I'm hoping that some of you pros or well informed types can educate me from time to time, and help me enjoy the game more.

I know in my mind what I think a charge is.... but I dont know the textbook definition of it as applied in a game by an officiating crew.

So hopefully you guys can help me see some of the finer points and I can avoid a serious medical condition.

Best wishes - see ya around

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Old Mon Nov 22, 2004, 03:17pm
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definitions

Glad to see more fans trying to find out information so that they can be better informed as a spectator. The question is a little more detailed than you may think. I will provide you with definitions that may help you. Also, if you are interested you may contact the National Federation of State High School Associations and obtain a rule book for you to refer to.

Blocking: ilegal personal contact which impedes the progress of an opponent with or without the ball.

Charging: illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponents torso.

To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
1. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court
2. The front of the guards torso must be facing the opponent

This may be just enough to confuse you, hopefully not. Best thing to do is pick up a rule book. There are a lot of additional bullet points under these definitions. I hope this helps you a little.
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2004, 09:09am
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Quote:
Originally posted by wilko
I know in my mind what I think a charge is.... but I dont know the textbook definition of it as applied in a game by an officiating crew.

The NCAA rule book is available on-line.

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Old Tue Nov 23, 2004, 10:04am
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Wow, already 2 responses. I can tell this is a lively place.

Thanks to both folks (Mr's(?) Redhouse and Jenkins) who had taken the time and replied thus far.

I am really more interested in its application in a game situation, as opposed to its literal definition by the NCAA. I guess I was vague in my initial post.

Since I have a willing and informed audience to field questions.... here are a couple more.

I often hear announcers on TV games speak of "advantage"... I dont understand this concept and application of the term here. Are they talking about something real or is that a myth?

As example -- Player X might be bringing the ball across halfcourt unguarded, and what would appear to the layman, to be carry or palming violation (some folks would say thats a nasty crossover dribble) is not called. Then the announcer would say something to the effect that there was "no advantage" there and thusly no call made. I would argure that a no call in that case rewards poor fundamentals. Indeed, I would say that NOT making that call in that case hurts the game and provides an advantage to the team that gets the benefit of the no call.

Screens.. whats to really stop a defender? Suppose that a fellow built like a fullback just slams the screener into the shooter to disrupt the shot. That does a bunch of things.. the intimidation factor, makes the screener less willing to step in, possible injury. What would be the ref'ing communitys' reaction to this type of physicality?

Game management.. During TV games, it always seems that after a foul is called, a commercial comes. Are those breaks choreographed in advance by the TV production crew? In other words, is there any pressure on the ref'ing community to MAKE breaks in the action to support the commercials of a televised game? And conversely, Could a coach save a foul on a player, by calling a timeout himself? Is this a real aspect of game management or am I trying too hard to see something that isnt there?

thanks in advance
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2004, 10:25am
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Quote:
Originally posted by wilko
Wow, already 2 responses. I can tell this is a lively place.

Thanks to both folks (Mr's(?) Redhouse and Jenkins) who had taken the time and replied thus far.

I am really more interested in its application in a game situation, as opposed to its literal definition by the NCAA. I guess I was vague in my initial post.

Since I have a willing and informed audience to field questions.... here are a couple more.

I often hear announcers on TV games speak of "advantage"... I dont understand this concept and application of the term here. Are they talking about something real or is that a myth?

As example -- Player X might be bringing the ball across halfcourt unguarded, and what would appear to the layman, to be carry or palming violation (some folks would say thats a nasty crossover dribble) is not called. Then the announcer would say something to the effect that there was "no advantage" there and thusly no call made. I would argure that a no call in that case rewards poor fundamentals. Indeed, I would say that NOT making that call in that case hurts the game and provides an advantage to the team that gets the benefit of the no call.

Screens.. whats to really stop a defender? Suppose that a fellow built like a fullback just slams the screener into the shooter to disrupt the shot. That does a bunch of things.. the intimidation factor, makes the screener less willing to step in, possible injury. What would be the ref'ing communitys' reaction to this type of physicality?

Game management.. During TV games, it always seems that after a foul is called, a commercial comes. Are those breaks choreographed in advance by the TV production crew? In other words, is there any pressure on the ref'ing community to MAKE breaks in the action to support the commercials of a televised game? And conversely, Could a coach save a foul on a player, by calling a timeout himself? Is this a real aspect of game management or am I trying too hard to see something that isnt there?

thanks in advance
Let's try to look at some of your points.
1. Advantage/disadvantage is a major aspect of refereeing. In determining wether contact constitutes a foul, you have to see if the player was disadvantaged by the contact. Example Dribbler A-1 drives around B-1 and there is some contact, A-1 beats his man scores a lay-up. An inexperienced ref might call the foul right away and take that basket away. A better way to judge the play is see if the contact is illegal by the defender and if the contact puts A-1 at a diadvantage. As far as traveling or palming, you could also use the same the same principle (not everyone agrees). A player lifts his pivot foot before releasing the ball in the backcourt with no defensive pressure, I am going to ignore that violation. The same action occurs when the dribbler is going around the defender to score, I am calling the travel.

2. Pushing a screener (or slamming) into the shooter is a foul.

3. NCAA televised games have TV timeouts that are pre-determined. There are TO's at the first stoppage of play under the 16 minute mark (under 12, under 8, under 4) in both halves. The teams also have some TO's they can take.
There is no conspiracy. A foul occurs at the 15:32 mark and it is a non shooting foul, go to TO. I believe there is a rule change this year where they are going to TO's before the Free Throws, I am not certain about this.

4. I don't understand your question about a coach saving a foul?

Hope this helps.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 23, 2004, 02:07pm
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Thanks Jay R.

1.
Quote:
A player lifts his pivot foot before releasing the ball in the backcourt with no defensive pressure, I am going to ignore that violation. The same action occurs when the dribbler is going around the defender to score, I am calling the travel.
Why would one ignore a violation?
Is that common to all levels of play and is that what Int'l leagues do too? I dont mean to sound rude, but as a rabid fan whooped up into a frenzy wanting every possible break for my favorite squad, if I can spot that, then surely a ref must. If you could back away from being an offical for a sec and look at the avg fan's position... Why is a violation not a violation when seen?

2.
Quote:
Pushing a screener (or slamming) into the shooter is a foul.
Yeah, I guess it would be a foul... but the underlying question I didnt state very well.. Is when is being physical, TOO physical ... and forces a new consideration into whats allowable contact vs: possibly diffusing and controlling a situation may get out of hand.

3. Thanks for the info..

4. This one is moot if there is nothing more to game management.


again.. thanks
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2004, 02:38pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by wilko
Why would one ignore a violation?
Is that common to all levels of play and is that what Int'l leagues do too? I dont mean to sound rude, but as a rabid fan whooped up into a frenzy wanting every possible break for my favorite squad, if I can spot that, then surely a ref must. If you could back away from being an offical for a sec and look at the avg fan's position... Why is a violation not a violation when seen?
Maybe the official did not see it as a violation? As officials we study the rulebook and officiate many more games than the average fan watches. We also know the game and understand what kind of things are accepted or not accepted in the game. It is a little more complicated than that, but my point is officials are consumed with the game, not just a team.

Quote:
Originally posted by wilko
Yeah, I guess it would be a foul... but the underlying question I didnt state very well.. Is when is being physical, TOO physical ... and forces a new consideration into whats allowable contact vs: possibly diffusing and controlling a situation may get out of hand.
If the contact puts someone at a disadvantage and someone gains an advantage as a result of the contact. It is that simple. Now that judgment will vary from one official to another or the talent that is on the floor. But contact is allowed in the game of basketball and the contact can be quite severe. That is not just me talking, this is the rulebook talking. The rulebook deals with incidental contact and when contact is a foul. It is up to each official to make that decision based on what they see.

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Old Tue Nov 23, 2004, 02:55pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by wilko
Thanks Jay R.

1.
Quote:
A player lifts his pivot foot before releasing the ball in the backcourt with no defensive pressure, I am going to ignore that violation. The same action occurs when the dribbler is going around the defender to score, I am calling the travel.
Why would one ignore a violation?
Is that common to all levels of play and is that what Int'l leagues do too? I dont mean to sound rude, but as a rabid fan whooped up into a frenzy wanting every possible break for my favorite squad, if I can spot that, then surely a ref must. If you could back away from being an offical for a sec and look at the avg fan's position... Why is a violation not a violation when seen?

Because we don't give a darn who wins the game. Many times fans will "think" they see a violation when none exists -- the fan sees palming whereas the official notes that the ball didn't come to rest in the hand of the dribbler, for example. Other favorites include the "high dribble" when the ball gets away or when players scramble after a loose ball and one retrieves the ball while sliding on the floor.

--Rich
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2004, 03:17pm
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Wilkco, consider contacting your local official's association. Get involved and learn the game. Study! Pass the tests. Do the middle school games, the rec leagues then move on to the frosh, JV... That should take you a couple years. You are arguing rules with the wrong people. We did get out there. We probably asked the same questions you did but in a forum that could show us how to officiate. I think you will find it rewarding and somewhat of a reality check. It's hard for us to explain rules and philosophy to someone who wants only to discuss things from a fan's point of view. And frankly, we normally tune out the fans.

Rut is right in that we see quite a few more games and know where to look and what to look for. If you spend a little time on the court as a referee, you will soon note a big change in the way you look at the game in general.

Have fun, good luck!
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2004, 04:32pm
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JRutledge
Quote:
Maybe the official did not see it as a violation? As officials we study the rulebook and officiate many more games than the average fan watches. We also know the game and understand what kind of things are accepted or not accepted in the game. It is a little more complicated than that, but my point is officials are consumed with the game, not just a team.
Thats a perfectly fine and and acceptable answer. I wish that various "Rules of the Game" segments or whatever you call them, would do more to educate viewers about the things that are or are not accepted in a game. As opposed to "this is a ball", "this is a foul line" kind of bits that I usually see and tune out. Perhaps instead of or in addition to the Analyist and play by play folks, a ref should be invited into the broadcast booth and the audience can get their comments as well..

The good fellow I was initally quoting and replying to said he would ignore the violation.. Thats a tad different in my mind than interpreting the rules so that no violation occured.


Rich and tharbert have some useful points as well, my thanks..
Im really glad officials dont give a darn who wins. I know myself well enuff to know that would never wash. I could not stop myself from rewarding teams I liked or wanted to win a given game and then penalize those I didnt like. I couldnt do it. The ref'ing community is truly better off without me.

I didnt think I was arguing or being combative. If I came off that way it wasnt my intent. Im just a guy off the street trying to gain a new perspective and better undertanding. Its not like I was citing a specific game, players, refs or calls made. If I have to become a ref to get to that place of understanding...,thank you, but no. I'll respecfully decline.

If its really come to the point where rules and philosophy cant be discussed and explained to the common fan then there is a serious disconnect. Perhaps thats why officals are constantly razzed and chided. Perhaps the game should do more inform fans and not tune them out.

Perhaps, then, I need to reconsider why I bother to watch in the 1st place.
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Old Tue Nov 23, 2004, 06:15pm
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Wilko,
I understand your questions and where you're coming from. I had the same type of qustions on the hockey board and I guess I came off a little rough because one guy came back at me a little excited.

Feel free to keep asking questions - an educated fan will be one less "screamer" in the stands. Also broacasters and analysts know the game but lack knowledge of the RULES of the game. Therefore, when they make comments about an officials call, they, for the most part, don't have a thorough understanding of the rule and/or how its applied to the game. A lot of misconceptions about rules come from broadcasters that use them on the air and people take their word as gospel. That's where the problem lies. Unfortuneately, the networks don't bother to hire an expert on the rules... although I think baseball does for the playoffs and world series.
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Old Wed Nov 24, 2004, 12:19am
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Quote:
Originally posted by wilko


I didnt think I was arguing or being combative. If I came off that way it wasnt my intent. Im just a guy off the street trying to gain a new perspective and better undertanding. Its not like I was citing a specific game, players, refs or calls made. If I have to become a ref to get to that place of understanding...,thank you, but no. I'll respecfully decline.

If its really come to the point where rules and philosophy cant be discussed and explained to the common fan then there is a serious disconnect. Perhaps thats why officals are constantly razzed and chided. Perhaps the game should do more inform fans and not tune them out.

Perhaps, then, I need to reconsider why I bother to watch in the 1st place.
I didn't see you as being combative, but as you can see on tv and at the games we are used to it. You have to remember that we have to have security escort us to our locker rooms because of the "combative fans".

We can explain philosophy to you; however, it is harder to understand why we do what we do when you haven't been there doing it yourself.

You have to remember that a lot of officials don't get into philosophy until they have the basics down and get a better "feel" for the game.

BTW the wicked crossover or palming the ball isn't a violation unless the ball comes to rest in the hand... which isn't as often as it looks.

Thanks for the questions and glad to have you reading the boards!
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Old Wed Nov 24, 2004, 11:23am
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Quote:
Originally posted by wilko
If its really come to the point where rules and philosophy cant be discussed and explained to the common fan then there is a serious disconnect.
Wilko, I don't think that we've come to a point where rules and philosophy can't be discussed. But generally, the "casual" fan doesn't really care about rules or philosophy. They want to cheer their team. They want every call to be in their team's favor. There's nothing wrong with that, either. That's what fans do. But my experience is that most fans (and even most announcers, who are paid to be knowledgable about the game) just don't really care too much about the details of the rules and their application. You seem to be the exception, and that's awesome. I, for one, am genuinely glad that you're here

Quote:
Perhaps thats why officals are constantly razzed and chided.

Nah, that too is just part of what fans do. They want every call to go their team's way. And since obviously that's not going to happen. It's easier to boo than to blame your team or to study the book to find out why the call was made.

Quote:
Perhaps, then, I need to reconsider why I bother to watch in the 1st place.
Nah, as long as you enjoy the game, there's no reason to ditch it, just b/c you run into some grumpy refs If you stick around, I'm pretty sure that you'll actually get a lot more enjoyment out of watching the games, b/c you'll have insight into all three teams on the floor -- your team, their opponents, and the refs.

Keep on posting!
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Old Fri Nov 26, 2004, 08:55pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
... If you stick around, I'm pretty sure that you'll actually get a lot more enjoyment out of watching the games, b/c you'll have insight into all three teams on the floor -- your team, their opponents, and the refs.

Keep on posting!


Chuck (& Wilko)-

Lest we forget the other element of "our team", the scorer and timer. I have had "team members" from both ends of this spectrum. I think it is truly important to acknowledge their involvement & influence in the process.

Just my two cents worth.

P.S. Welcome aboard Wilko!
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