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Hey hows it going...
I am an avid college basketball fan in the heart of tobacco road. I found this site last year and thought about posting then, but thought better of it. Unfortunately my team was dismissed from the tourney (prematurely!!! :-p ). I guess at that time of year this place gets a lot of "baiters" making noise. And I didnt want to come off as sour grapes or whatever... so I decided to wait until the start of this year. I'm here because I'm hoping that some of you pros or well informed types can educate me from time to time, and help me enjoy the game more. I know in my mind what I think a charge is.... but I dont know the textbook definition of it as applied in a game by an officiating crew. So hopefully you guys can help me see some of the finer points and I can avoid a serious medical condition. Best wishes - see ya around |
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definitions
Glad to see more fans trying to find out information so that they can be better informed as a spectator. The question is a little more detailed than you may think. I will provide you with definitions that may help you. Also, if you are interested you may contact the National Federation of State High School Associations and obtain a rule book for you to refer to.
Blocking: ilegal personal contact which impedes the progress of an opponent with or without the ball. Charging: illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponents torso. To obtain an initial legal guarding position: 1. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court 2. The front of the guards torso must be facing the opponent This may be just enough to confuse you, hopefully not. Best thing to do is pick up a rule book. There are a lot of additional bullet points under these definitions. I hope this helps you a little. |
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Wow, already 2 responses. I can tell this is a lively place.
Thanks to both folks (Mr's(?) Redhouse and Jenkins) who had taken the time and replied thus far. I am really more interested in its application in a game situation, as opposed to its literal definition by the NCAA. I guess I was vague in my initial post. Since I have a willing and informed audience to field questions.... here are a couple more. I often hear announcers on TV games speak of "advantage"... I dont understand this concept and application of the term here. Are they talking about something real or is that a myth? As example -- Player X might be bringing the ball across halfcourt unguarded, and what would appear to the layman, to be carry or palming violation (some folks would say thats a nasty crossover dribble) is not called. Then the announcer would say something to the effect that there was "no advantage" there and thusly no call made. I would argure that a no call in that case rewards poor fundamentals. Indeed, I would say that NOT making that call in that case hurts the game and provides an advantage to the team that gets the benefit of the no call. Screens.. whats to really stop a defender? Suppose that a fellow built like a fullback just slams the screener into the shooter to disrupt the shot. That does a bunch of things.. the intimidation factor, makes the screener less willing to step in, possible injury. What would be the ref'ing communitys' reaction to this type of physicality? Game management.. During TV games, it always seems that after a foul is called, a commercial comes. Are those breaks choreographed in advance by the TV production crew? In other words, is there any pressure on the ref'ing community to MAKE breaks in the action to support the commercials of a televised game? And conversely, Could a coach save a foul on a player, by calling a timeout himself? Is this a real aspect of game management or am I trying too hard to see something that isnt there? thanks in advance |
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1. Advantage/disadvantage is a major aspect of refereeing. In determining wether contact constitutes a foul, you have to see if the player was disadvantaged by the contact. Example Dribbler A-1 drives around B-1 and there is some contact, A-1 beats his man scores a lay-up. An inexperienced ref might call the foul right away and take that basket away. A better way to judge the play is see if the contact is illegal by the defender and if the contact puts A-1 at a diadvantage. As far as traveling or palming, you could also use the same the same principle (not everyone agrees). A player lifts his pivot foot before releasing the ball in the backcourt with no defensive pressure, I am going to ignore that violation. The same action occurs when the dribbler is going around the defender to score, I am calling the travel. 2. Pushing a screener (or slamming) into the shooter is a foul. 3. NCAA televised games have TV timeouts that are pre-determined. There are TO's at the first stoppage of play under the 16 minute mark (under 12, under 8, under 4) in both halves. The teams also have some TO's they can take. There is no conspiracy. A foul occurs at the 15:32 mark and it is a non shooting foul, go to TO. I believe there is a rule change this year where they are going to TO's before the Free Throws, I am not certain about this. 4. I don't understand your question about a coach saving a foul? Hope this helps. |
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Thanks Jay R.
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Is that common to all levels of play and is that what Int'l leagues do too? I dont mean to sound rude, but as a rabid fan whooped up into a frenzy wanting every possible break for my favorite squad, if I can spot that, then surely a ref must. If you could back away from being an offical for a sec and look at the avg fan's position... Why is a violation not a violation when seen? 2. Quote:
3. Thanks for the info.. 4. This one is moot if there is nothing more to game management. again.. thanks |
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Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010) |
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Wilkco, consider contacting your local official's association. Get involved and learn the game. Study! Pass the tests. Do the middle school games, the rec leagues then move on to the frosh, JV... That should take you a couple years. You are arguing rules with the wrong people. We did get out there. We probably asked the same questions you did but in a forum that could show us how to officiate. I think you will find it rewarding and somewhat of a reality check. It's hard for us to explain rules and philosophy to someone who wants only to discuss things from a fan's point of view. And frankly, we normally tune out the fans.
Rut is right in that we see quite a few more games and know where to look and what to look for. If you spend a little time on the court as a referee, you will soon note a big change in the way you look at the game in general. Have fun, good luck! |
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JRutledge
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The good fellow I was initally quoting and replying to said he would ignore the violation.. Thats a tad different in my mind than interpreting the rules so that no violation occured. Rich and tharbert have some useful points as well, my thanks.. Im really glad officials dont give a darn who wins. I know myself well enuff to know that would never wash. I could not stop myself from rewarding teams I liked or wanted to win a given game and then penalize those I didnt like. I couldnt do it. The ref'ing community is truly better off without me. I didnt think I was arguing or being combative. If I came off that way it wasnt my intent. Im just a guy off the street trying to gain a new perspective and better undertanding. Its not like I was citing a specific game, players, refs or calls made. If I have to become a ref to get to that place of understanding...,thank you, but no. I'll respecfully decline. If its really come to the point where rules and philosophy cant be discussed and explained to the common fan then there is a serious disconnect. Perhaps thats why officals are constantly razzed and chided. Perhaps the game should do more inform fans and not tune them out. Perhaps, then, I need to reconsider why I bother to watch in the 1st place. |
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Wilko,
I understand your questions and where you're coming from. I had the same type of qustions on the hockey board and I guess I came off a little rough because one guy came back at me a little excited. Feel free to keep asking questions - an educated fan will be one less "screamer" in the stands. Also broacasters and analysts know the game but lack knowledge of the RULES of the game. Therefore, when they make comments about an officials call, they, for the most part, don't have a thorough understanding of the rule and/or how its applied to the game. A lot of misconceptions about rules come from broadcasters that use them on the air and people take their word as gospel. That's where the problem lies. Unfortuneately, the networks don't bother to hire an expert on the rules... although I think baseball does for the playoffs and world series. |
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We can explain philosophy to you; however, it is harder to understand why we do what we do when you haven't been there doing it yourself. You have to remember that a lot of officials don't get into philosophy until they have the basics down and get a better "feel" for the game. BTW the wicked crossover or palming the ball isn't a violation unless the ball comes to rest in the hand... which isn't as often as it looks. Thanks for the questions and glad to have you reading the boards!
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~Hodges My two sense! |
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Nah, that too is just part of what fans do. They want every call to go their team's way. And since obviously that's not going to happen. It's easier to boo than to blame your team or to study the book to find out why the call was made. Quote:
Keep on posting!
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Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only! |
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias
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Chuck (& Wilko)- Lest we forget the other element of "our team", the scorer and timer. I have had "team members" from both ends of this spectrum. I think it is truly important to acknowledge their involvement & influence in the process. Just my two cents worth. P.S. Welcome aboard Wilko!
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"Stay in the game!" |
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