bat the ball repeatedly to the air

[ysong]

When two players compete for a rebound (or a pass), one of the players barely reaches the ball and bats it up to the air again. the two players then jump for the second time. That same player reaches the ball again and bats it slightly away from the other player. realizing his height advantage, this player jumps and bats the ball the third time toward a more favorable spot in a very controlled fashion, while his competitors in the vicinity give up and watch his solo play.

Are all those repeated batting legal moves? when does the batting stop being legal, even with defenders in the vicinity?

Thanks.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ysong
When two players compete for a rebound (or a pass), one of the players barely reaches the ball and bats it up to the air again. the two players then jump for the second time. That same player reaches the ball again and bats it slightly away from the other player. realizing his height advantage, this player jumps and bats the ball the third time toward a more favorable spot in a very controlled fashion, while his competitors in the vicinity give up and watch his solo play.

Are all those repeated batting legal moves? when does the batting stop being legal, even with defenders in the vicinity?

Repeatedly batting the ball is legal. As soon as the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) while batting it, the player has now established player control, and is subsequently governed by the applicable rules, such as travelling. The rule of thumb is that you can't travel without having player control of the ball at the same time- i.e holding it.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Repeatedly batting the ball is legal. As soon as the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) while batting it, the player has now established player control, and is subsequently governed by the applicable rules, such as travelling. The rule of thumb is that you can't travel without having player control of the ball at the same time- i.e holding it.

Think of volleyball. If the player has not yet established control, then any bat that's legal in volleyball, is legal in basketball, without regard to the feet. As soon as you'd call a lift in volleyball, there's player control, and the footwork matters.

[BktBallRef]

Never saw Dennis Rodman play, did you?

[ysong]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Repeatedly batting the ball is legal. As soon as the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) while batting it, the player has now established player control, and is subsequently governed by the applicable rules, such as travelling. The rule of thumb is that you can't travel without having player control of the ball at the same time- i.e holding it.

Thanks for answering my questions.

The NCAA rule 4-13-4(e) states that "There shall be no team control during:
the period that follows any of these acts (a-d) while the ball is being batted (from the vicinity of other players) in an attempt to secure control;"

What if a really tall player repeatedly bat the ball without meaningful contests from opponents, so he can bat the ball to anywhere he wants then bat it again before the ball touch the floor or anyone else, does he in fact "in control" the ball even though without holding or dribbling it? Can his controlled batting be considered "self-passing" or even illegal dribbling? Think of it, he can keep batting the ball while run down the full court (assume there are always some opponents around his vicinity). What rule can we apply to stop him?

Thanks.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ysong
What if a really tall player repeatedly bat the ball without meaningful contests from opponents, so he can bat the ball to anywhere he wants then bat it again before the ball touch the floor or anyone else, does he in fact "in control" the ball even though without holding or dribbling it?

You declare the bats as controlled by definition, and require a dribble. By the fourth or fifth one, there must have been a hold somewhere along the line. To bat the ball clear down the floor without it touching the floor or any other player would be physically impossible without a hold somewhere.

A more germane question would be what about the really tall player who dribbles up to a defender, bats the ball over the head of the defender, and then touches the ball on the backside of the defender before it hits the ground. That's only one tap, but it's a travel. You'll see it every once in a while.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by rainmaker
[what about the really tall player who dribbles up to a defender, bats the ball over the head of the defender, and then touches the ball on the backside of the defender before it hits the ground. That's only one tap, but it's a travel.

But if he lets the ball hit the ground before touching it again, it's legal and he can continue to dribble.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
[/B]

1) You declare the bats as controlled by definition, and require a dribble. By the fourth or fifth one, there must have been a hold somewhere along the line. To bat the ball clear down the floor without it touching the floor or any other player would be physically impossible without a hold somewhere.

2) A more germane question would be what about the really tall player who dribbles up to a defender, bats the ball over the head of the defender, and then touches the ball on the backside of the defender before it hits the ground. That's only one tap, but it's a travel. You'll see it every once in a while. [/B][/QUOTE]
1) What definition allows you to declare the bats as controlled? It's strictly a judgement call whether player control is ever obtained on any particular tap, not a "must" call after the 4th or 5th tap. And I think that it is actually physically possible to bat or tap the ball down the floor in the air without letting it come to rest too.

2)Why is that germane? The tap over the head is during a dribble. Apples and oranges- and different rules applying to the apples and oranges. If the player was just tapping on a rebound, he certainly could very legally tap the ball over an opponent's head, and then run around that opponent and continue tapping it in the air. N'est-ce pas?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 5th, 2004 at 09:54 PM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ysong

Thanks for answering my questions.

The NCAA rule 4-13-4(e) states that "There shall be no team control during:
the period that follows any of these acts (a-d) while the ball is being batted (from the vicinity of other players) in an attempt to secure control;"

What if a really tall player repeatedly bat the ball without meaningful contests from opponents, so he can bat the ball to anywhere he wants then bat it again before the ball touch the floor or anyone else, does he in fact "in control" the ball even though without holding or dribbling it? Can his controlled batting be considered "self-passing" or even illegal dribbling? Think of it, he can keep batting the ball while run down the full court (assume there are always some opponents around his vicinity). What rule can we apply to stop him?

Thanks.

How we "stop him" is simple: his coach will eventually jump off the bench and yell at him to stop f***ing around, which will startle him into actually grabbing the ball, at which point the coach will call time & sub him out of the game.

That's how we "stop him".

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

1) You declare the bats as controlled by definition, and require a dribble. By the fourth or fifth one, there must have been a hold somewhere along the line. To bat the ball clear down the floor without it touching the floor or any other player would be physically impossible without a hold somewhere.

2) A more germane question would be what about the really tall player who dribbles up to a defender, bats the ball over the head of the defender, and then touches the ball on the backside of the defender before it hits the ground. That's only one tap, but it's a travel. You'll see it every once in a while. [/B]

1) What definition allows you to declare the bats as controlled? It's strictly a judgement call whether player contol is ever obtained on any particular tap, not a "must" call after the 4th or 5th tap. And I think that it is actually physically possible to bat or tap the ball down the floor in the air without letting it come to rest too.

2)Why is that germane? The tap over the head is during a dribble. Apples and oranges- and different rules applying to the apples and oranges. If the player was just tapping on a rebound, he certainly could very legally tap the ball over an opponent's head, and then run around that opponent and continue tapping it in the air. N'est-ce pas? [/B][/QUOTE]

Yea, germane wasn't the best word to use. I guess I was thinking the over the head thing is a lot more common than someone keeping the ball in the air 4 or 5 or 6 bats in a row.

I suppose it's theoretically possible for someone to bat the ball up in the air 4 or 5 times in a row without it ever coming down. What kind of touches would they have to be to not constitute a hold? Volleyball type hits would get painful pretty fast, wouldn't they? (I don't even want to consider the arguement about a bat into the air being the start of a dribble or not)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
[/B]

What kind of touches would they have to be to not constitute a hold?
[/B][/QUOTE]I think that's it's strictly a judgement call on the official's part as to whether the ball ever comes to rest or not during the tap, Juulie. If the official thinks that the ball does come to rest, then you're now into pivot feet, legally starting a dribble, etc.

[ysong]

[ [/B][/QUOTE]

How we "stop him" is simple: his coach will eventually jump off the bench and yell at him to stop f***ing around, which will startle him into actually grabbing the ball, at which point the coach will call time & sub him out of the game.

That's how we "stop him". [/B][/QUOTE]

So you do not believe there are any *rules* to stop this kind of play at all?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

What kind of touches would they have to be to not constitute a hold?
[/B]

I think that's it's strictly a judgement call on the official's part as to whether the ball ever comes to rest or not during the tap, Juulie. If the official thinks that the ball does come to rest, then you're now into pivot feet, legally starting a dribble, etc. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, and I guess what I was saying is that after 4 or 5 taps, my judgement is pretty sure there was a hold in there somewhere. But then I don't work very high level of volleyball, so maybe I just don't recognize a good tap when I see one.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ysong
[

How we "stop him" is simple: his coach will eventually jump off the bench and yell at him to stop f***ing around, which will startle him into actually grabbing the ball, at which point the coach will call time & sub him out of the game.

That's how we "stop him". [/B][/QUOTE]

So you do not believe there are any *rules* to stop this kind of play at all?

[/B][/QUOTE]

You mean specifically a player tap tap tapping (maybe better said bat bat batting) the ball all the way down court?

As JR said once the ball rests on the player's hand you have player control.

But the only time *I* see a player tap tap tapping the ball to himself is when he's fighting with a coupla other players for possession, usually off a rebound. Perfectly legal.

But if a player did, for some reason, tap tap tap the ball all the way down court I have nothing. Assuming he only bat bat batted the ball.

[ysong]

Originally posted by rainmaker

I think that's it's strictly a judgement call on the official's part as to whether the ball ever comes to rest or not during the tap, Juulie. If the official thinks that the ball does come to rest, then you're now into pivot feet, legally starting a dribble, etc. [/B]

Yes, and I guess what I was saying is that after 4 or 5 taps, my judgement is pretty sure there was a hold in there somewhere. But then I don't work very high level of volleyball, so maybe I just don't recognize a good tap when I see one. [/B][/QUOTE]

It is not too hard to tap the ball up with finger tips only without any hold at all. But I still do not think this kind of "repeated controlled tap" is legal, just can not find any ground in the NCAA rule to against it. Any ideas?

Thanks.