Why or Why not?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by blindzebra

So, I guess that puts Hawk's coach and me ahead of the curve when it comes to b-ball in the states.

Yeah, sure, you'll be at the top of the class when...errr...if fiba rules are adopted in the US.

Until then... :shrug:

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Ref in PA
A question came up about a play.

A1 rolls the ball on the floor and recovers the ball.

Does this fit the definition of a dribble? If not, what is it? Can it be repeated?

I am interested in your rulings and why.

Assuming that the action was voluntary (i.e., not a fumble), A1 action was not the start of a dribble. But, it was the start of a pass.


A dribble is defined by:

NFHS R4-S15-A1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionallhy strikes the ball with the hand(s) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

NFHS R4-S15-A2: During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).

NFHS R4-S15-A3: The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor.


A pass is defined by:

NFHS R4-S31: PASS: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats, or rolls the ball to another player.


Moving on to the definition of traveling:

NFHS R4-S43-A3a: After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot: The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or a try for goal.


Unfortunately, there are not Casebook Plays that apply specifically to this play.


As one can see, this is the start of a pass, and not the start of a dribble. But the question remains, and that is: Did A1 commit a traveling violation when he/she touched the ball after releasing the ball for the pass?

I have more that I would like to add to this post, but it is late and I am going to go to bed. So I will post this response in an effort to give some information that will move the thread along.

Good night everybody.

[Edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. on May 4th, 2004 at 11:59 PM]

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Assuming that the action was voluntary (i.e., not a fumble), A1 action was not the start of a dribble. But, it was the start of a pass.


A dribble is defined by:

NFHS R4-S15-A1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionallhy strikes the ball with the hand(s) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

NFHS R4-S15-A2: During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).

NFHS R4-S15-A3: The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor.


A pass is defined by:

NFHS R4-S31: PASS: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats, or rolls the ball to another player.


Moving on to the definition of traveling:

NFHS R4-S43-A3a: After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot: The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or a try for goal.


Unfortunately, there are not Casebook Plays that apply specifically to this play.


As one can see, this is the start of a pass, and not the start of a dribble. But the question remains, and that is: Did A1 commit a traveling violation when he/she touched the ball after releasing the ball for the pass?

I have more that I would like to add to this post, but it is late and I am going to go to bed. So I will post this response in an effort to give some information that will move the thread along.

Good night everybody.

[Edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. on May 4th, 2004 at 11:59 PM]

Mark,

Since A1 may retrieve a pass to a teammate as long as they have not already dribbled, you have a precedent of a pass that becomes a dribble, why would this be any different?

[Dan_ref]

Geeze, I just hate when he does that!!!

Now I won't be able to sleep tonight wondering how Mark will rule on this play.

...maybe I'll just go & read some of his earlier posts, that oughta at least get me drowsey...

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Assuming that the action was voluntary (i.e., not a fumble), A1 action was not the start of a dribble. But, it was the start of a pass.

MTD,
The rolling of the ball may not meet the definition of a pass in this case. Look again at the def you posted:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
A pass is defined by:

NFHS R4-S31: PASS: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats, or rolls the ball to another player.

It specifically states that the movement of the ball must be "to another player." If this rolling is not, then we don't have either a dribble or a pass here.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

And it only took you 3 years and 10 months to figure out how to do it!

Yea, my hero is Mr. Ludd.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Yea, my hero is Mr. Ludd.

Me too!

[just another ref]

Rulebook application and correctness aside, this is one of those plays that happens once in a almost never, which makes it one that whatever you call or don't call, as long as you do so with conviction, no one will question it very much.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

MTD,
The rolling of the ball may not meet the definition of a pass in this case. Look again at the def you posted:

It specifically states that the movement of the ball must be "to another player." If this rolling is not, then we don't have either a dribble or a pass here.

just because something starts out to be one thing, it can turn out to be something else. If a pass from outside the arc goes in the basket, it is no longer a pass, it is a three point field goal. If you throw a pass and then run and catch it yourself, it is no longer a pass but a dribble, if you had one, or a travel, if you did not.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by just another ref
just because something starts out to be one thing, it can turn out to be something else. If a pass from outside the arc goes in the basket, it is no longer a pass, it is a three point field goal. If you throw a pass and then run and catch it yourself, it is no longer a pass but a dribble, if you had one, or a travel, if you did not.

This is not at all true.

A pass that goes in from outside the arc is NOT a try. It is simply counted as three points. There are several ways points can be scored in the absence of a try. This is one of them.

Also, the ball that is thrown and caught by the same player never was a pass. It was a dribble all along, it just takes until the ball is again touched to make the determination. A pass has to be to another player. If it doesn't go to another player, it's not a pass.

Now, to the original case...

At first I tought that the original case couldn't be a travel since, in all but one case (that I could remember), a travel occurs while holding the ball. The one case is when a player throws the ball into the air, moves the pivot foot, and catches the ball before it hits the floor (not talking about a shot or a ball that is thrown off the offensive backboard).

Then I tought it should either be a dribble or an illegal dribble. If it doesn't fit the definition of a legal dribble, it's an illegal dribble. A player who is holding the ball could potentially start a dribble by pushing it to the floor in such a way that their hand continues to make contact with the ball all the way to the floor and back up. It would be difficult and not particularly useful, but it could be done and it would be legal. They could also push it to the floor and keep the hand on top of it in such a way as to prevent it from bouncing back up. Again, not too useful but legal and not even a dribble. (case on a player touching the ball to the floor without letting it go).

Then, I remembered one more case that may help...

Player sitting on the floor while holding the ball. Player puts the ball on the floor, stands up, then picks up the ball. Case book says traveling. With this, there is precedent that rules on moving after putting the ball on the floor in a way that is not a dribble. It is a travel.

In summary, the ball is moved around the floor in 3 ways: passing, dribbling, and shooting. To move with control of the ball, a player has to dribble. This is not a dribble. Traveling.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

This is not at all true.

A pass that goes in from outside the arc is NOT a try. It is simply counted as three points. There are several ways points can be scored in the absence of a try. This is one of them.

Also, the ball that is thrown and caught by the same player never was a pass. It was a dribble all along, it just takes until the ball is again touched to make the determination. A pass has to be to another player. If it doesn't go to another player, it's not a pass.

Now, to the original case...

At first I tought that the original case couldn't be a travel since, in all but one case (that I could remember), a travel occurs while holding the ball. The one case is when a player throws the ball into the air, moves the pivot foot, and catches the ball before it hits the floor (not talking about a shot or a ball that is thrown off the offensive backboard).

Then I tought it should either be a dribble or an illegal dribble. If it doesn't fit the definition of a legal dribble, it's an illegal dribble. A player who is holding the ball could potentially start a dribble by pushing it to the floor in such a way that their hand continues to make contact with the ball all the way to the floor and back up. It would be difficult and not particularly useful, but it could be done and it would be legal. They could also push it to the floor and keep the hand on top of it in such a way as to prevent it from bouncing back up. Again, not too useful but legal and not even a dribble. (case on a player touching the ball to the floor without letting it go).

Then, I remembered one more case that may help...

Player sitting on the floor while holding the ball. Player puts the ball on the floor, stands up, then picks up the ball. Case book says traveling. With this, there is precedent that rules on moving after putting the ball on the floor in a way that is not a dribble. It is a travel.

In summary, the ball is moved around the floor in 3 ways: passing, dribbling, and shooting. To move with control of the ball, a player has to dribble. This is not a dribble. Traveling.

Camron,
Great post and I agree completely. BTW the casebook play for the travel is 4.43.5 Sit B in the Ruling.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
[/B]

Player sitting on the floor while holding the ball. Player puts the ball on the floor, stands up, then picks up the ball. Case book says traveling. With this, there is precedent that rules on moving after putting the ball on the floor in a way that is not a dribble. It is a travel.

In summary, the ball is moved around the floor in 3 ways: passing, dribbling, and shooting. To move with control of the ball, a player has to dribble. This is not a dribble. Traveling.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Camron,
Great post and I agree completely. BTW the casebook play for the travel is 4.43.5 Sit B in the Ruling.

[/B][/QUOTE]The above is not applicable in any way, shape or form for one simple reason.In Camron's case, you have travelling when the player gained CONTROL of the ball by picking it up. In the case book play cited, the player also had CONTROL of the ball while on the floor. Control of the ball is defined as holding or dribbling the ball. If you're PUSHING the ball along the floor, you do NOT meet the rule book definitions of either holding or dribbling the ball. You just plain and simple do NOT have control of the ball, so you can't be called for travelling. It's no different than fumbling the ball in the air the length of the court. May look bad, but it's legal.

There is nothing anywhere in the rule book that says that you can travel without having control of the ball. Casebook play 4.43SitA nicely points that out.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on May 5th, 2004 at 07:45 AM]

[Ref in PA]

I have very much enjoyed the discussion so far and would add some points.

First, tossing the ball in the air, taking steps, and then catching the ball before it hits the floor is referred to as an illegal dribble in the casebook 4.15.4.E (b).

You say a player has control while batting the ball to the floor while dibbling. I agree.

If the dribbler allows the ball to bounce more than once, is it now an interrupted dribble? or is he still in control? How many bounces must there be before PC is lost? Can you lose PC on the initial bounce of the start of the dribble? or do you have to bounce it once to prove a dribble was started?

I hope we can agree that the ball can bounce more than once between touches by the dribbler.

Maybe I am wrong for doing this, but to me the basic definition of the legal dribble for a player who has PC is purposely releasing the ball (though batting, throwing, etc.), ball touches the floor, you direct the ball with a bat (or not), and the dribble ends when the ball comes to rest in one or both of the hands of the dribbler. This all assumes no defensive interference and the ball stays in bounds.

Does rolling the ball fit this criteria? Yes - except the only place where the board does not have consensus is in the manner of release. Just because the ball starts near or at the floor when the release is done, some argue that it does not fit the definition of the start of the dribble. Is there a difference if the initial push was done like a little kid trying to roll a bowling ball or if the release was 1 mm off the floor? They can look silimar, but does it make a difference for the purposes of starting a dribble? Certainly the ball rolling across the floor is bouncing - although the bounces are extremely small. But in theory, A1 could begin batting the ball enough that is would begin to look like a more conventional dribble.

Personally, I think a dribble has started.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Good morning everybody.


Camron Rust (May 05/02:42amEDT), 2004:

"Player sitting on the floor while holding the ball. Player puts the ball on the floor, stands up, then picks up the ball. Case book says traveling. With this, there is precedent that rules on moving after putting the ball on the floor in a way that is not a dribble. It is a travel."


Jurassic Referee (May 05/07:38amEDT), 2004:

"NFHS Casebook Play 4.43.5 Situation B, RULING."


I think that this is the closest appropriate play that can be applied to the original play, and I would rule that A1 had committed a traveling violation. I think that is a good play to be sent to the NFHS, NCAA, and FIBA for a ruling.

MTD, Sr.

[Jimgolf]

For some historical perspective, before dribbling was invented, back in the days of peach baskets and center jumps after every basket, rolling the ball was the first means used by players trying to get around the original rules restriction that a player could only pass or shoot the ball. Once dribbling was allowed in 1910, rolling the ball became rare. However, IMHO, it fits all the definitions of dribbling and should be officiated accordingly.