Why or Why not?

Ref in PA · #1 (**permalink**) Tue May 04, 2004, 01:01pm

A question came up about a play.

A1 rolls the ball on the floor and recovers the ball.

Does this fit the definition of a dribble? If not, what is it? Can it be repeated?

I am interested in your rulings and why.

Damian · #2 (**permalink**) Tue May 04, 2004, 01:10pm

Sounds like a travel. It doesn't seem to fall under the definition of a dribble, so when the pivot has been picked up, then traveling. Of course if the roll was accidental, it could be considered a fumble and could be picked up.

Interesting question. Look forward to other answers.

Adam · #3 (**permalink**) Tue May 04, 2004, 01:31pm

Don't have my rule book with me, but I'm calling it a dribble. Therefore, it may not be repeated, unless it is never accompanied by a motion or grab that would end the dribble.

rainmaker · #4 (**permalink**) Tue May 04, 2004, 01:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Damian
Sounds like a travel. It doesn't seem to fall under the definition of a dribble, so when the pivot has been picked up, then traveling. Of course if the roll was accidental, it could be considered a fumble and could be picked up.

Interesting question. Look forward to other answers.

Last time we talked about rolling, we decided it wasn't a violation. Nothing in the book addresses it either way. I always let it go, myself. If I can't tell the coach why it's illegal, I'm not going to call it!

Woo-hoo!! I found it!! Here's a link to a previous discussion. http://www.officialforum.com/thread/5387

[Edited by rainmaker on May 4th, 2004 at 02:37 PM]

blindzebra · #5 (**permalink**) Tue May 04, 2004, 01:42pm

4-15 ART.3 The dribble may be started by PUSHING,THROWING, or batting the ball to the floor.

I'd be comfortable with combining rolling with either pushing or throwing.

Dan_ref · #6 (**permalink**) Tue May 04, 2004, 01:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra
4-15 ART.3 The dribble may be started by PUSHING,THROWING, or batting the ball to the floor.

I'd be comfortable with combining rolling with either pushing or throwing.

Yeah but it says *TO the floor*, not *ALONG the floor*.

Hawks Coach · #7 (**permalink**) Tue May 04, 2004, 02:12pm

Along is all in the eye of the bholder - its just a diffferent angle at which the ball contacts the floor.

I am inclined to think this is not a violation when first done, provided the dribble was started legally (i.e., pivot was not lifted), it clearly cannot be done by the inbounder (can't be first to touch), and it can only be done once if the player picks up the ball - doing it again would be double dribble. It could arguably be done more than once if the player continues rolling the ball with one hand. I would argue this with no real conviction, but mainly because any smart defense could take advantage of this and steal the ball or force a pick up (ending the "dribble"). Therefore, this "tactic" gains no advantage beyond that of the normal dribble - it actually is not as advantageous as a normal dribble.

blindzebra · #8 (**permalink**) Tue May 04, 2004, 03:15pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Along is all in the eye of the bholder - its just a diffferent angle at which the ball contacts the floor.

I am inclined to think this is not a violation when first done, provided the dribble was started legally (i.e., pivot was not lifted), it clearly cannot be done by the inbounder (can't be first to touch), and it can only be done once if the player picks up the ball - doing it again would be double dribble. It could arguably be done more than once if the player continues rolling the ball with one hand. I would argue this with no real conviction, but mainly because any smart defense could take advantage of this and steal the ball or force a pick up (ending the "dribble"). Therefore, this "tactic" gains no advantage beyond that of the normal dribble - it actually is not as advantageous as a normal dribble.

It's an And 1 move, and like 99% of their ball handling it is or will lead to an illegal dribble. LOL

Hawks Coach · #9 (**permalink**) Tue May 04, 2004, 03:32pm

blindzebra
I see your lol, but do you really think this is illegal when first done (i.e., the first roll followed by a pickup and no dribble or second roll)? I think it may easily lead to a violation, but is not one on face value.

blindzebra · #10 (**permalink**) Tue May 04, 2004, 03:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
blindzebra
I see your lol, but do you really think this is illegal when first done (i.e., the first roll followed by a pickup and no dribble or second roll)? I think it may easily lead to a violation, but is not one on face value.

Coach, that is why I said, "It is or will lead to an illegal dribble."

As a coach you'd probably welcome an official nipping it in the bud when a kid started their Hot Sauce impression.

No, I don't think that it is a violation in and of itself, it is the start of a dribble.

rainmaker · #11 (**permalink**) Tue May 04, 2004, 05:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

No, I don't think that it is a violation in and of itself, it is the start of a dribble.

I don't think it fits the definition of dribble at all. "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushed the ball to the floor once or several times."

I disagree with Hawks' Coach that "to the floor" and "along the floor" are different only by the angle.

I would think a small player could learn to roll the ball quite effectively as a legal move, and I'm a little surprised it hasn't become more of an issue.

Jurassic Referee · #12 (**permalink**) Tue May 04, 2004, 05:52pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Ref in PA
A question came up about a play.

A1 rolls the ball on the floor and recovers the ball.

Does this fit the definition of a dribble? If not, what is it? Can it be repeated?

I am interested in your rulings and why.

There is nothing in the rule book that prohibits a player rolling a ball. Rolling the ball does not meet the definition of a dribble. The player is not batting or pushing the ball to the floor once or several times, as per the definition of a dribble in NFHS R4-15-1. Legal play- no rule against it, and the existing rules do not cover it.