Tournament brackets

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
To satisfy my own curiosity, I took a quick glance at OSU. I see 16 games vs postseason teams, with a 13-3 record. Of those games, 7 were against NIT teams, 9 against NCAA teams, against whom they were 7-2. Duke played 8 NCAA teams in the last month of their schedule alone, and admittedly went 4-4 - not that impressive. However, they played 18 games and went 13-5 overall against NCAA competition - in other words, they played twice as many NCAA teams as OSU, and they played more NCAA teams than OSU had NCAA and NIT combined.

OSU played 7 out of their last 10 against tournament teams, but 3 were NIT, so they had 4 games in one month against NCAA tournament competition. Duke played 4 NCAA teams in a row during this same stretch. The only time OSU played any b2b games against NCAA teams was in their conference tournament. Slightly different situation, wouldn't you agree?

Still think OSU earned a 1 seed, but again, there are many sides to this.

Conference games are tough in any conference and to win the Big 12 is not a cake walk. I could be mistaken, But I believe OSU win not only the Tourney but the reg. season as well. I think you give Duke too much credit this yr. But, we shall see in the next three wks.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Slightly different situation, wouldn't you agree?

Still think OSU earned a 1 seed, but again, there are many sides to this.

No, then you are telling us that the rankings mean nothing. Because the are suppose to mean something. If that is you point, then Michigan deserves in. What did Duke do during their last 10 games (which is a factor in the selection process according to the NCAA Tournament committee)?

But this is why I say what I say. Purdue beat Duke on a neutral floor and they were terrible this year in the Big Ten. If the Big Ten was so bad as compared to the ACC, why did that even happen? Okla. St. deserved that seed. And I think the committee falls into the hype to always believe that the ACC is so much better, even when they struggle. Remember the sorry Pac 10 team, Washington went into NC State and beat them at home. The ACC is a good conference, but not that much better than everyone else.

Peace

[tomegun]

Hawks coach, you really ripped me a new one while I was away. Let me see if I can get back a little.

I'm from Indiana so I take this seriously. I don't care if you win your conference tournament 50 years in a row and win 20 games for 100 years in a row. It is all about who raises the trophy at the end of the year! Coach K has 3 trophies with a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong list of blue chippers during his tenure. The real coach K, the General, has 3 trophies and you can find out a lot about them from your mechanic, or the guy who does your taxes or the grocery store manager. You know why? Because these are the types of guys that won those trophies with coach Knight! Coach K and Dean Smith always get this "he's won 20 games for the past 15 years, been to 8 final fours and won blah, blah, blah." And they get all of the players. With three trophies each? For every one Indiana player on a championship team from Indiana you can name I can name two on a Duke or North Carolina championship team. How can you win a trophy in the "time-out" game, lose Lynch, add Stackhouse and Wallace and not make some noise? The stench from the 1990 Duke vs. UNLV game still hasn't gone away!

You give coach Knight those players and see how many trophies he has!
Jordan, Brad Dougherty and Matt Dougherty (was Kenny Smith on this team too!) and you can't get to the final four?

Hurly, Laetner (spelled wrong but you should get tossed if you stomp on someone's chest), Grant Hill, Thomas Hill, Brian Davis and one of the worst coaching jobs by a coach (Pitino) in the final seconds of a game (Thomas Hill had fouled out, Grant hill still can't hit a long jumper, Bobby Hurley couldn't throw it in the ocean until he was a senior so why don't you put two people around Laetner) and you win two after beating the team that beat you by 30 the year before and is one of the greatest college teams of all time (UNLV, remember they had it all)?

My blood pressure is up

[BktBallRef]

Wow, I haven't heard so much crying and whining since I stopped working youth league games every Saturday!

I noticed that Rut completely ignored the ACC's domination of the Little Ten in the Challenege. 7-2, Rut, 7-2! So get outta here with that "sub-par teams" bull$hit. If the ACC has subpar teams, then the Little Ten must really suck!

Finally, I believe the Chairman of the Committee is the AD at iowa, so I'm sure he really wanted to push those ACC schools to get into the tourney.

BTW Rut, Indiana and Isiah Thomas won the National Championship in 1981, not 1980.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Mar 15th, 2004 at 12:47 PM]

[Hawks Coach]

jrutledge
What in my quote leads you to beleive Michigan earned a spot? That makes no sense from any line of reasoning I have used here. I am a UM alum, Bo is God and Woody is Satan, but UM is not, repeat NOT, an NCAA tournament caliber team (maybe cause a Duke alum coaches them ).

UM played 8 (by my quick count) games against NCAA tournament teams, going 2-6. They went 2-1 against the NIT Big Ten teams, so maybe they have a chance in the losers bracket tournament.

I am merely saying that I thought that OSU and Duke were a close call, could go either way depedning on how you slice up the seaon and what factors you value most, but I lean toward OSU.

As for last 10 games, yes they do count. Please show me any team other than Duke who played nothing but post-season teams for their last 10 games, and we can start comparing records. Oh that's right, Maryland came close - 8 of their last 10 were against legitimate NCAA teams, 1 was against an NIT team. Oh, and they won 5 straight against postseason teams.

And by the way, UM was 5-5 and had only 2 games against NCAA tournament teams during that stretch, both losses, and were 1-3 vs all postseason teams. See the difference?

[RecRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I just think the ACC is the most overrated conference around. You are telling me that Maryland, who was not in the tournament a week ago is not a #4 seed? Peace

Should have been 2 or 3.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Wow, I haven't heard so much crying and whining since I stopped working youth league games every Saturday!

Or the latest Duke game.

[icallfouls]

This is an officiating forum not a NCAA tournament forum. Since my alma-mater failed to make the tournament, I find this offensive. Please delete this thread.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I noticed that Rut completely ignored the ACC's domination of the Little Ten in the Challenege. 7-2, Rut, 7-2! So get outta here with that "sub-par teams" bull$hit. If the ACC has subpar teams, then the Little Ten must really suck!

Why do you continously refer to the Big Ten as the "Little Ten"? You got a problem with the Big Ten or something?

The challenge was way back in November. It is March now. Things change in 4 months.

We'll just have to see how the Atlantic Coast Chumps do in the tournament.



[Edited by LDUB on Mar 15th, 2004 at 01:34 PM]

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by icallfouls
This is an officiating forum not a NCAA tournament forum. Since my alma-mater failed to make the tournament, I find this offensive. Please delete this thread.

Oh, but I'm oh so happpy.

My team got the nod of being #1.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Wow, I haven't heard so much crying and whining since I stopped working youth league games every Saturday!

Maybe that's why they stopped crying & whining?

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

Why can't they wait?

They set the time for what ever reasons. The conferences can set their tourney time earier if they want. That's basically what the NCAA has said. If the tourney's want their games to matter, the can move the games earlier.

It takes a long time to get agreement on the seedings and an extra 20-30 minutes would probably not do it.

Among the reasons for getting the schedule out early...

The schools must all arrange a lot of logistical issues. Transportation and Lodging for 100+ people (team, staff, cheerleaders, band, administrators, etc.) is not easy to come up with in the 3 days they have as it stands now. When I was a student at Memphis State, we had a chartered TWA jet (not sure what size but it was a regular commercial jet) to go to Boise one year.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Wow, I haven't heard so much crying and whining since I stopped working youth league games every Saturday!

I noticed that Rut completely ignored the ACC's domination of the Little Ten in the Challenege. 7-2, Rut, 7-2! So get outta here with that "sub-par teams" bull$hit. If the ACC has subpar teams, then the Little Ten must really suck!

Finally, I believe the Chairman of the Committee is the AD at iowa, so I'm sure he really wanted to push those ACC schools to get into the tourney.

BTW Rut, Indiana and Isiah Thomas won the National Championship in 1981, not 1980.

Hey Tony, this is not about the Big Ten. As I stated, the Big Ten got what they deserved. They only deserved 3 and earned only 3. But to tell me that Maryland is a #4 seed? Give me a freakin break. Who cares what Duke did in the past? If that is the criteria, Michigan State should be a #1 seed. Hey, they have one a NC in the past 5 years. Can Duke say that? How many Final Fours did they go to in the past 5 year? Michigan State went to 3 in a row. Wisconsin went to 2 in a row, with not so impressive talent. If Duke and North Carolina have the best talent in the country, why has it been so long sense they won a NC. They had Jason Williams and Shane Batea(sp?), you should have won a NC that year. But that is the past, who do you have now? Duke could not beat a middle of the road team like Purdue in the so called Little Ten at a neutral site. Michigan State played the Top 10 for their non conference schedule, why do that if you are going to get beat and not get credit for it. But that is the typical of the ACC. Do not go anywhere and play anyone on the road and then claim you did something. How is North Carolina so good, when they were terrible this past year? And outside of your top 3 (Duke, North Carolina and Maryland), who does anything in the conference? Indiana, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Ohio State all have been to the Final Four in the past 5 years. What has NC State done in 20 years? What has Wake Forest done as well? Did they get to the Final Four with Tim Duncan on that team? What has GT done? What has Florida State done since they joined the conference? Are you telling me that Miami is going to be a basketball powerhouse? Let us not go there about history and what conferences have done historically. And yes, this is probably one of the better years that the ACC has had, but out side of Tabacco road, who has done anything in your conference. The Big East has has more NC than the ACC in about a 20 year span of time. Take away Duke from that conference, what have they done? But then again, we will find out how good they are in a week. Tell me in a couple of weeks the same thing when they get beat by the many Mid-Majors that knock them off. Not having parody in your league does not make you a better league than everyone else. I think you have been listening to Dickie V too much.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
jrutledge
What in my quote leads you to beleive Michigan earned a spot? That makes no sense from any line of reasoning I have used here. I am a UM alum, Bo is God and Woody is Satan, but UM is not, repeat NOT, an NCAA tournament caliber team (maybe cause a Duke alum coaches them ).

Michigan deserved a spot over UAB. You are telling me that Conference USA deserved 6 spots? A conference that cannot sell out the arena for the team that won the league? I would put any Conference USA team in the Big Ten and they would not be in the top 8 of the league. And that includes Cincinnati. Utah State got jobbed too. 17-1 in their league and they cannot get a bid over UAB?

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
UM played 8 (by my quick count) games against NCAA tournament teams, going 2-6. They went 2-1 against the NIT Big Ten teams, so maybe they have a chance in the losers bracket tournament.

Never said they earned it, but if the critiria is about the league, the Big Ten is a tougher league from top to bottom than the ACC. The ACC does not sell out their arenas like the Big Ten. Northwestern and Penn State are about the only exceptions to that. And Penn State a couple of years ago went to a sweet 16 for God Sake.

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I am merely saying that I thought that OSU and Duke were a close call, could go either way depedning on how you slice up the seaon and what factors you value most, but I lean toward OSU.

No it was not. You cannot honestly tell me that Duke would have been passed over if OSU went 6-4 in their last ten game, was ranked higher than OSU and OSU would have ended up with a #1 seed. That would not have happen and you know it.

As for last 10 games, yes they do count. Please show me any team other than Duke who played nothing but post-season teams for their last 10 games, and we can start comparing records. Oh that's right, Maryland came close - 8 of their last 10 were against legitimate NCAA teams, 1 was against an NIT team. Oh, and they won 5 straight against postseason teams.

I do not if they are NCAA teams or not. If you over-rate the conference, of course they are going to be seen as NCAA teams. What is so impressive about winning 5 straight, when you lose 4 other games. You are ranked higher to the teams you lose to.

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
And by the way, UM was 5-5 and had only 2 games against NCAA tournament teams during that stretch, both losses, and were 1-3 vs all postseason teams. See the difference?

Again, my post in not about Michigan. But Michigan was in a similar situation as Indiana a few years ago, and they played for the National Championship? So why is today so different? My point is not about who made it, it is the seeding I have the most problem with. You do not barely make the tournament and make a #4 seed. Then be ranked lower than another team and then get a #1 seed after you have tanked many games in a 10 game window at the end of the year. The ACC is not that good. Winning 20 games does not mean anything if your league is not worth those wins. The problem is that many of these teams were so over hyped, then got beat, then someone thinks they are the still the better because they were not as good as everyone thought they would be. If I am not mistaken, NC State was suppose to be all world. Georgia Tech was suppose to be the conference champion? Just like the BCS. If you were considered good at the beginning and you lose a couple of games, you have a better chance as compared to teams that might have done better than you did all year long. Just because it is not the BCS, does not make it BS.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by icallfouls
This is an officiating forum not a NCAA tournament forum. Since my alma-mater failed to make the tournament, I find this offensive. Please delete this thread.

Good point, even though you were kidding. What really is the difference between this and a baseball thread? Nada!

Big Ten/ACC seems to bring out the same passion as BoSox/Yankees. Only with different posters.