PAC 10 Officiating

[Adam]

Sorry, Wildcat, this thread doesn't mean anything. Read it more closely and you'll see that those who saw the play say it was very close.

Try again.

[wildcatman]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Sorry, Wildcat, this thread doesn't mean anything. Read it more closely and you'll see that those who saw the play say it was very close.

Try again.

Nevadaref said the second backcourt call was incorrect, and I don't think anyone disputed him, but just said it was close. I said it was questionable. I think that's fair.

Like I said, I mean no offense. There are not many avenues for frustration like mine to take- I believe in sportsmanship of the fans as well as the players, so I don't yell anything crude or distasteful to opposing teams or officials. I wish I had some video, because it seems like some of the calls in the PAC 10 have been especially bad this year. I just wanted to know why officiating doesn't seem to get better, and I wanted to vent a little too, I guess. All the constructive replies were appreciated.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Yeah, like anybody's gonna change fanboy's mind. Waste of time.

I'm betting ol' numbnuts here also posts as BBallCoach! Whatta ya say?

[One-Whistle]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I'm betting ol' numbnuts here also posts as BBallCoach! Whatta ya say?

The thought that this is a “rebirth” of Bballcoach DEFINITELY crossed my mind much earlier in the thread. Regardless of the reality whether he is or is not, it is certain that he is of the same ilk.

Williebfree and icallfouls gave a clear challenge for wildcatfan to accept that we would not agree on this issue just by the nature of our allegiances. wildcatfan then perpetuated his uninformed stance by citing an officiating.com thread which had brief and unapplicable content to support his argument. His self-proclaimed fallacy of an unbias stance and the illegitimacy of his resources is getting tiring.

IMHO, THERE IS NOTHING CONSTRUCTIVE TO BE GAINED by continuing this thread. THis is my first AND LAST posting in this thread.

Good day!

[wildcatman]

Originally posted by One-Whistle

The thought that this is a “rebirth” of Bballcoach DEFINITELY crossed my mind much earlier in the thread. Regardless of the reality whether he is or is not, it is certain that he is of the same ilk.

Williebfree and icallfouls gave a clear challenge for wildcatfan to accept that we would not agree on this issue just by the nature of our allegiances. wildcatfan then perpetuated his uninformed stance by citing an officiating.com thread which had brief and unapplicable content to support his argument. His self-proclaimed fallacy of an unbias stance and the illegitimacy of his resources is getting tiring.

IMHO, THERE IS NOTHING CONSTRUCTIVE TO BE GAINED by continuing this thread. THis is my first AND LAST posting in this thread.

Good day!

Listen, if you guys can't take criticism, then you are way too full of yourselves. I think I was very constructive in my comments, and I NEVER ONCE said I was unbiased, and in fact stated the opposite. I'll state it again- yes I am biased, yes I care who wins or loses, but I would much rather have consistent and accurate officiating then anything else, including wins. I have no idea who "Bballcoach" is. This is my first time to this forum and while there are some here that understand it's purpose- to promote any and all discourse on officiating and things related- it's obvious that there are many here who cannot take criticism.

Williebfree and icallfouls made constructive, intelligent points, and I gave them credit for that. Some of you need to read a few more times before you reply.

I am called "uninformed," among other things. Do I need to know everything about something to have an opinion on it? If this is true, then some of you are saying only officials can judge other officials on officiating. I think the rational people here will see that this is debatable- just because someone doesn't know all the rules doesn't mean that they can't see a bad call. How many times have any of you been watching a game when a non-referee friend notice a bad or missed call before you?

If I am so uninformed and so blind to the ways of officiating, then prove me wrong. May the first of you that has never had a missed or bad call tell me that I am totally wrong about the PAC 10, and it's all the players, coaches, and fans who are mistaken.

[Brad]

wildcatman,

This may be your first visit here, but you are borderline on an ejection... We do not go for personal attacks on this forum, so I would stay away from the derogatory comments towards others on the board.

The article by Greg Hansen was one of the worst excuses for journalism that I have seen in a long time. His bitterness was only exceeded by his ignorance.

He called the crew of Tommy Nuñez, Bill Vinovich and Tom Wood a "lower-level crew"... They are ALL NCAA Tournament officials! In addition to that, Bill Vinovich is an NFL official and Tommy Nuñez (Jr.) is the son of former NBA Tommy Nuñez who retired last year after a career of 30 years.

Tommy Nuñez, Bill Vinovich and Tom Wood have forgotten more about officiating than Greg Hansen will even know. Furthermore, the fact that he identifies them as a "lower-level crew" shows that he can't even do HIS job as a journalist.

At the end of his ramblings he even takes a jab at Tommy Nuñez for flying first class. Give me a break!

Understand that this board is by and for officials. We have coaches and fans that participate because they can do so in a reasonable manner. Fans that think that this forum can be used as an extension of their 3rd row seat in the gym to berate officials are going to be sadly disappointed!

- Brad

[wildcatman]

Originally posted by Brad
wildcatman,

This may be your first visit here, but you are borderline on an ejection... We do not go for personal attacks on this forum, so I would stay away from the derogatory comments towards others on the board.

The article by Greg Hansen was one of the worst excuses for journalism that I have seen in a long time. His bitterness was only exceeded by his ignorance.

He called the crew of Tommy Nuñez, Bill Vinovich and Tom Wood a "lower-level crew"... They are ALL NCAA Tournament officials! In addition to that, Bill Vinovich is an NFL official and Tommy Nuñez (Jr.) is the son of former NBA Tommy Nuñez who retired last year after a career of 30 years.

Tommy Nuñez, Bill Vinovich and Tom Wood have forgotten more about officiating than Greg Hansen will even know. Furthermore, the fact that he identifies them as a "lower-level crew" shows that he can't even do HIS job as a journalist.

At the end of his ramblings he even takes a jab at Tommy Nuñez for flying first class. Give me a break!

Understand that this board is by and for officials. We have coaches and fans that participate because they can do so in a reasonable manner. Fans that think that this forum can be used as an extension of their 3rd row seat in the gym to berate officials are going to be sadly disappointed!

- Brad

Brad-

My last post my have had some personal attacks, and I apologize. I understand that officials take a lot of heat, but I feel my criticism was nothing if NOT personal- and I was replied to with personal attacks. Is this the way it is in this forum? Personal attacks from "uninformed biased trolls" will not be tolerated, while personal attacks from the members of this forum are?

According to the logic of this thread, you cannot judge Greg Hansen's article, because you don't know enough about journalism. Until you submit yourself to the rigors of a bachelors or masters in journalism, and then numerous years writing obituary columns until you get a real writing assignment, you will not have enough knowledge on journalism to judge Hansen's article.

Like I said before, I believe in the sportsmanship of the players as wells as the fans- I don't yell or boo at officials at games, and I sit in the student section. I still get frustrated though, and I thought I would broach the topic here. Some of the replies were constructive and educational, and I really appreciate that. Some were juvenile, and I realize that coming into a place like this with my comments makes me a target for those who cannot or don't want to honestly examine PAC 10 officiating, and poor officiating in general. I know most, if not all, officials work for peanuts because they love the game, and their most important goal is to call the game cleanly and correctly. Things go wrong, I understand, but I just think officiating in the PAC 10 could be better. That's my uninformed, biased, fanatic-troll opinion.

[Brad]

I think that we are pretty even handed when it comes to not allowing personal attacks. Keep in mind, as officials we are yelled at and berated all the time, so those that do so here simply aren't going to be given a lot of leeway. I think that we deserve a place to call our own without being constantly hasseled by the same ignoramuses that yell at us during games.

The comment regarding me not having a journalism degree is a non sequitur. I do not need a journalism degree nor any experience as a writer to point out that he got a fact wrong.

As officials we read articles all the time that make no sense -- you have referenced two yourself on this thread. The first I've already addressed and the second makes a statement regarding the ball entering the basket before the light/horn goes off. As officials we all know that this is not the rule, thus the credibility of the writer goes out the window.

So, when someone comes along who has not demonstrated any knowledge of the subject and simply remarks, "the PAC-10 has more bad or missed calls than any other conference" it just doens't pass muster.

[Adam]

First some definitions.

Missed Call: A misapplication of the rules. This would include phantom travels, missed back court violations, and calling a foul with zero contact.

Questionable calls: Calls requiring judgment due to the nature of the call/no call. This includes having to make a split second determination of whether his foot hit the line (back court and out of bounds), whether the contact made warrants a foul, or whether the behavior warrants a T.

You'll find refs are more likely to claim someone made a "missed" call when it's obvious than to challenge a "questionable" call. Even then there is a strong (implied or expressed) caveat that our opinion assumes the play described happened as written. Some might go so far as to say they wouldn't have call it that way, but rarely will they say the ref kicked a judgment call. Even when we see it (in person or on TV). It's the common courtesy of deferring to the one who actually had to make the call.

Now, the two plays you offered as examples don't work. One (the foul on the shot) was a judgment call, it seems. The other seems to have been a case where the refs got it right and the journalist was woefully ignorant of the rule.
Unless you have more concrete examples of "missed" calls, your point goes nowhere.
Secondly, you would need to show that the PAC-10 is worse off than other conferences. That would be quite a task, given that you won't find confirmation from fans of other conferences; and you admittedly don't watch other conferences. One must assume, therefore, that you are complaining about D-1 officials in general. yet I think you would need to show us that officials are actually "missing" calls rather than judging it differently than you would.

Why are you here? Are you here to vent or are you here to discuss? We don't take what look like uninformed rants very well. If you're here to discuss, then ask questions about individual plays. We'll answer rules questions, interpretation questions, and even officiating philosophy questions. Tell me what you expect out of participating in this board.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by wildcatman

Listen, if you guys can't take criticism, then you are way too full of yourselves. I think I was very constructive in my comments, and I NEVER ONCE said I was unbiased, and in fact stated the opposite. I'll state it again- yes I am biased, yes I care who wins or loses, but I would much rather have consistent and accurate officiating then anything else, including wins. I have no idea who "Bballcoach" is. This is my first time to this forum and while there are some here that understand it's purpose- to promote any and all discourse on officiating and things related- it's obvious that there are many here who cannot take criticism.

Williebfree and icallfouls made constructive, intelligent points, and I gave them credit for that. Some of you need to read a few more times before you reply.

I am called "uninformed," among other things. Do I need to know everything about something to have an opinion on it? If this is true, then some of you are saying only officials can judge other officials on officiating. I think the rational people here will see that this is debatable- just because someone doesn't know all the rules doesn't mean that they can't see a bad call. How many times have any of you been watching a game when a non-referee friend notice a bad or missed call before you?

If I am so uninformed and so blind to the ways of officiating, then prove me wrong. May the first of you that has never had a missed or bad call tell me that I am totally wrong about the PAC 10, and it's all the players, coaches, and fans who are mistaken.

If you don't know the rules,what is illegal contact,what is incidental contact how can you honestly know if it was a
bad call?

This is not a put down,I'm actually trying to explain how things work on the court.

In your original post you were citing a bad call on a block that was,"All ball,he was 3 feet away from him."
Were you watching the whole play or just the block? It is very possible that the foul occurred BEFORE the block,but the official was applying advantage/disadvantage,and when the defender was able to block the shot he deemed the contact BEFORE the block did hinder the shooter.

You added money to the problem by saying,"That some officials are working for peanuts and want to do as good a job as they can,because they love the game." That is true,but let me ask you,if you are making $750 to $1,000
a game would you not try your best? It would be STUPID not to because less then 10% of officials get to work at that
level,so there are tens of thousands of us that would gladly take their place. They are evaluated on EVERY game.
They keep their jobs by maintaining a high level of officiating and working to get better.

Officials are human and we will make mistakes,at that level the players are too big and gifted for the officials to see everything that occurs.They have dedicated years of hard work to reach this level and are working hard to stay there.However,they are doing a job where they are expected
to be perfect and still GET BETTER!

[wildcatman]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
First some definitions.

Missed Call: A misapplication of the rules. This would include phantom travels, missed back court violations, and calling a foul with zero contact.

Questionable calls: Calls requiring judgment due to the nature of the call/no call. This includes having to make a split second determination of whether his foot hit the line (back court and out of bounds), whether the contact made warrants a foul, or whether the behavior warrants a T.

You'll find refs are more likely to claim someone made a "missed" call when it's obvious than to challenge a "questionable" call. Even then there is a strong (implied or expressed) caveat that our opinion assumes the play described happened as written. Some might go so far as to say they wouldn't have call it that way, but rarely will they say the ref kicked a judgment call. Even when we see it (in person or on TV). It's the common courtesy of deferring to the one who actually had to make the call.

Now, the two plays you offered as examples don't work. One (the foul on the shot) was a judgment call, it seems. The other seems to have been a case where the refs got it right and the journalist was woefully ignorant of the rule.
Unless you have more concrete examples of "missed" calls, your point goes nowhere.
Secondly, you would need to show that the PAC-10 is worse off than other conferences. That would be quite a task, given that you won't find confirmation from fans of other conferences; and you admittedly don't watch other conferences. One must assume, therefore, that you are complaining about D-1 officials in general. yet I think you would need to show us that officials are actually "missing" calls rather than judging it differently than you would.

Why are you here? Are you here to vent or are you here to discuss? We don't take what look like uninformed rants very well. If you're here to discuss, then ask questions about individual plays. We'll answer rules questions, interpretation questions, and even officiating philosophy questions. Tell me what you expect out of participating in this board.

Brad, Snagwells, good posts. I differ on the Hansen article, and fail to see any factual errors, but the Daily Wildcat quote is crap. The Bibby quote was used to show how frustrating it is not to have many options when a coach/player/fan has questions about officiating. I know he is a big whiner, but in his quote, he's complaining that he can't say anything about officiating or officials because he would risk a fine, censure, or both.

I guess that's why I'm here. I saw this as an avenue to discuss officiating, and I realize that I need to be more specific on my concerns out of respect for the members of this forum. It's easy to forget that officials are human, and the pressure of calling any game has got to be intense. After reading other threads here, I was comforted knowing the passion and commitment that was displayed. I'm sure some of you can understand, I was frustrated, and felt like I had a legitimate concern about PAC 10 officiating. In the future, I will try to address specific plays and use as much supportive evidence as I can muster.

Thanks for all constructive replies. Cincinatti is playing Louisville right now, and OSU and Arizona are playing tonight, so I've got some games to watch.

[canuckrefguy]

I told you guys (and gals) a while back that we need to beware of all these "coaches" and "fans" coming here specifically to spout off about how we, in general, suck so bad.

Wildcat, the gist of your original post, albeit diplomatically written, was that Pac-10 officials suck, they screw your team constantly, and what do we all think about that. You deserve whatever replies - constructive (in your mind) or otherwise (in your mind) - that come your way.

By all means, go back to your den and scream at the refs on TV some more. Have fun.

[SMEngmann]

I really think it's funny to go to some these games (HS and college) and just listen to how ignorant and abusive the fans are. Most fans have no clue how the officials get to the level that they're officiating and really have no idea how closely scrutinized the officials are at the higher levels. Most fans I'm sure think that the officials just sign up, arrive at the gym 15 minutes before the game strap of a whistle and just call 'em. Most fans have no idea that in a D1 game, the officials have worked thousands of games and risen above the rest through hard work. They have no clue that every single call that is made, from every single position on the floor is taped and scrutinized often from several angles by observers, who, unlike fans, have an extensive officiating background. As officials when fans and sportswriters who have ADMITTEDLY never officiated a game in their lives criticize the best of the best, I think it is only fair for us to react harshly. Fans like Wildcatfan have a right to their opinion, but that opinion should be expressed in a fan forum rather than an officiating forum. Fans have just as much right to criticize the playcalling of NFL coaches in football, but imagine what would happen if a fan with no coaching experience posted his criticism on a board of football coaches, it would be immediately dismissed as ignorant. Everyone can offer an opinion, just your opinion carries no weight among officials when you've never once called a game and you have no knowledge of the rules.