PAC 10 Officiating

[wildcatman]

I am a University of Arizona Alum, and a big fan of college basketball, especially PAC-10 basketball. I am not a fan, however, of PAC-10 officiating. I realize that this may be an old topic on this forum, but the officiating needs to improve. The PAC-10 has more bad or missed calls than any other conference, and here is a news article about a few:

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/wildcats/9469.php

In a close game like the Arizona at Stanford game, bad officiating can drastically affect the outcome. Even though Arizona could have played better in the first half, I truly believe that better calls would have resulted in Arizona winning that game. And by better calls I don't mean biased towards Arizona, I mean better as in accurate, fair, and correct calls.

Last night was another example. The officiating at the Arizona at Oregon game was poor, and the most glaring mistake was the foul called on Hassan Adams on a clean block he had. Adams was three feet away from Luke Jackson, Jackson was planted, and the ball was swatted cleanly away. If I performed at my job like some of the PAC 10 officials do at theirs, I would be fired. There must be some way to improve the quality and consistency of the officiating, and I'm hoping someone here has some ideas.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by wildcatman
I am a University of Arizona Alum, and a big fan of college basketball, especially PAC-10 basketball. I am not a fan, however, of PAC-10 officiating. I realize that this may be an old topic on this forum, but the officiating needs to improve. The PAC-10 has more bad or missed calls than any other conference, and here is a news article about a few:

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/wildcats/9469.php

In a close game like the Arizona at Stanford game, bad officiating can drastically affect the outcome. Even though Arizona could have played better in the first half, I truly believe that better calls would have resulted in Arizona winning that game. And by better calls I don't mean biased towards Arizona, I mean better as in accurate, fair, and correct calls.

Last night was another example. The officiating at the Arizona at Oregon game was poor, and the most glaring mistake was the foul called on Hassan Adams on a clean block he had. Adams was three feet away from Luke Jackson, Jackson was planted, and the ball was swatted cleanly away. If I performed at my job like some of the PAC 10 officials do at theirs, I would be fired. There must be some way to improve the quality and consistency of the officiating, and I'm hoping someone here has some ideas.

Yes, it's been discussed.

No, we can't do anything about it (assuming there's anything to do something about).

If the conference wants to change, it will.

Most of the officials work other conferences -- it seems unlikely that they'd do a good job in other games and a bad job in Pac-10 games.

[blindzebra]

Fan is short for fanatic,you are an Arizona alum,so you are biased about calls.Had you said that the officiating was bad in your favor against Oregon,you would have some credibility,but you came out with a bad call against your Wildcats.

Officials will miss calls,we are human.In big-time D1 you are dealing with VERY big and athletic players,so it makes it even more difficult to see everything from start to finish,thus you will get bad calls/no calls.

Try watching a game where you have no emotional ties to the outcome,from another conference,and I bet you will see
that calls will be very similar to those you see in the Pac 10.You will probably even see several of the Pac 10
officials working these games as well,a lot of these guys work games in several conferences.

[wildcatman]

Originally posted by blindzebra
Fan is short for fanatic,you are an Arizona alum,so you are biased about calls.
Try watching a game where you have no emotional ties to the outcome

Yes, I am a fan, but I am not a fanatic. I think the constructive way I'm bringing this up establishes my capabilty of rational thought, UNLIKE a fanatic. There seems to be this feeling of "necessary evil" with PAC 10 officiating, a feeling of "yeah, it sucks, but there's nothing we can do about it." And I watch as many games from other conferences as I can, because I think college basketball is one of the greatest sports in the world. The calls seem to be much more accurate, and there seem to be LESS of them, in conferences to the east. The PAC 10 is infamous for "ticky-tack" fouls, where other major conferences let the players play more, instead of dictating the speed and outcome of the game with questionable calls.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by wildcatman
The PAC 10 is infamous for "ticky-tack" fouls, where other major conferences let the players play more, instead of dictating the speed and outcome of the game with questionable calls.

This statement just goes to show that you have no understanding of what you're talking about. The officials who officiate in the PAC-1o are the same officials who officiate in the Mountain West Conference, the Western Athletic Conference, and the Big Sky Conference.

Fans in the ACC and SEC complain about the same things that you describe. Let's face it, you're more objective when you watch other teams and other conferences, simply because you're a fanati..., I mean, fan.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by wildcatman
The PAC 10 is infamous for "ticky-tack" fouls, where other major conferences let the players play more, instead of dictating the speed and outcome of the game with questionable calls.

What "ticky-tack" fouls were you mad about? Because any contact that affects what a player is trying to do, despite the severity of the contact should be called a foul.

What everyone said is basically right on. But these officials are evaluated by every call, every play and have to explain in detail what they saw and why they made calls or did not make calls. Even those games you do not see on TV, the same things apply. And if they are doing a bad job, there are about 200 people that will take that person's place in the conference. But as stated, officials at that level work several conferences and had to work other conferences and have some time of success before getting hired at a major conference like the Pac-10.

Oh well, I guess you are just another fanati....

Peace

[wildcatman]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
This statement just goes to show that you have no understanding of what you're talking about. The officials who officiate in the PAC-1o are the same officials who officiate in the Mountain West Conference, the Western Athletic Conference, and the Big Sky Conference.

Fans in the ACC and SEC complain about the same things that you describe. Let's face it, you're more objective when you watch other teams and other conferences, simply because you're a fanati..., I mean, fan. [/B]

I'll be the first one to admit my knowledge of the intricacies of officiating is non-existant. I know bad officiating when I see it though. I'm not talking about officiating that is tough, close, and could go either way, which I realize is most of the calls in D1. I'm talking about calls that are horribly late, missed, or wrong. Maybe other conferences are like this too, but it seems to me that for as long as I have been a college basketball fan, the PAC 10 has had some poor officiating. I know that the same officials work other conferences, but where am I going to see a MWC, WAC, or Big Sky game on TV?

I did some quick research, and I looked up free-throw attempts in the PAC-10, ACC, and SEC. This should have SOME SMALL correlation to the number of fouls called. These numbers represent conference schedule numbers, as of today.

ACC FTA: 4863
PAC 10 FTA: 4933
SEC FTA: 5751

I know I'm biased, but I honestly just want fair officiating that doesn't affect the game. Anyone who saw the Arizona at Stanford game knows how much the officials changed the outcome.

EDIT: The numbers I posted above lend no support to my statement that the PAC 10 has more fouls called than other conferences. I wouldn't have put it there if I did not realize this. Plus, I realize that any conclusion that can be made from these numbers is questionable. I posted those numbers because I thought they were interesting.

[Edited by wildcatman on Feb 20th, 2004 at 01:46 PM]

[icallfouls]

There is another way to look at all of this.

There is definitely a different style of play once you get to the Rockies. In the east, much like the NBA, there is alot pack it and dump the ball into the post. Hence it appears that the officials 'let them play.' Very few teams get out and run the floor on a game to game basis.

In the west, again like the NBA, the style is to get up and down the floor with athletic guard and forward play. Think about it, can you name a post player out west? These teams get out and run more often than not (ie, AZ 100, UO 87).

Most officials recognize the strengths of the teams playing on a given night and allow the teams to compete accordingly.

Anyway, the games are called differently, which has been the case for YEARS. Since you are a 'cat fan, imagine how Lute would react to Stoudamire getting 'handled' all over the floor.

Additionally, we work for the conferences (meant coaches), and they talk with our assignors about how games are to be called or what needs the most attention. That is how most Points of Emphasis are arrived at. Each month the assignors hold a conference call with the NCAA to discuss concerns during the season and then further adjustments are implimented.

I have rambled enough, but hopefully the point is understood.

[TriggerMN]

First you say you're willing to admit you don't know much about officiating, but then you say you know bad officiating when you see it. Yeah, that makes alot of sense.

You have a problem with the officiating, sign up. Those of us in this forum will be more than happy to come watch you officiate a junior high game and berate you.

How about some credit for the crew last night for being thick skinned as all of the idiot fans consistently yelled "BS" and "Hey ref F U!"

Also, how come you aren't complaining about the fact that Salim Stoudamire didn't get T'd up for all the taunting he was doing last night? Oh that's right, you're a fan, and not an official.

The only reason you complain is because officials can't complain back. Think about how the world would be, and how stupid you would look, if the officials had the right to scream at stupid fans about all the rules they don't understand. If you want to see the problem, look in the mirror.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by wildcatman


I'll be the first one to admit my knowledge of the intricacies of officiating is non-existant. I know bad officiating when I see it though.

I'm sorry wildcat but these 2 sentences are not consistent in any possible way, shape or form. What you have is a woefully uninformed opinion, which of course you are entitled to.

I did some quick research, and I looked up free-throw attempts in the PAC-10, ACC, and SEC. This should have some small correlation to the number of fouls called. These numbers represent conference schedule numbers, as of today.

ACC FTA: 4863
PAC 10 FTA: 4933
SEC FTA: 5751

I know I'm biased, but I honestly just want fair officiating that doesn't affect the game. Anyone who saw the Arizona at Stanford game knows how much the officials changed the outcome.

Soo...your claim that the pac-10 has more fouls than any other league is disproven by your own stats. BTW by requirement the officials affect *every* game, you just don't realize it. BTW2 in many instances fouls occuring at the end of the game - so-called strategic fouls - tend to skew the overall foul count, depending on how close the game is and how stubborn the losing coach is. For your stats to reflect the reality you are attempting to portray you'll need to filter out the strategic fouls.

Anyway....what's your point again?

[Rick Vietti]

If we are going to look at officiating in a statistical frame, then basing a conferences type of officiating on a total foul count is not sound stats.

Quantity has no correlation on performance. I have had blow out games where we call for example 20 fouls for the whole game for both teams. A tight game may have 10 fouls called in the last minute of play against one team, do to the fact that the team that is behind is trying to get the ball back.

Not a good measurement tool looking at quantity only!

If you are going to measure officiating calls throughout a game, a better method would be charting every call.

I believe charting over the course of a season would be a better measuring tool and could provide objective data.

Random feelings from one game or even several games do not stand up to objective analysis.

[wildcatman]

Originally posted by icallfouls

Additionally, we work for the conferences (meant coaches), and they talk with our assignors about how games are to be called or what needs the most attention. That is how most Points of Emphasis are arrived at. Each month the assignors hold a conference call with the NCAA to discuss concerns during the season and then further adjustments are implemented.

I have rambled enough, but hopefully the point is understood.

Your post was very constructive and educational, thanks. And you're right about the different styles of play and the subsequent different ways the games are called. I recently learned that the teams cut up tape from their games and send the calls they have concerns about to the PAC 10, I'm guessing to Lou Campanelli's office. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Even with these regulatory practices in place, there doesn't seem to be much of a change. Here's an example illustrating the history of poor officiating in the PAC 10. A bad call or two is one thing, but consistently affecting the outcome of games is another. This is from an article in the Daily Wildcat, from March 1st, 1995.

"Some other instances of blown calls this year include a basket credited to UCLA's Ed O'Bannon at the end of the first half against the UA at Pauley Pavilion. The basket appeared to go in before the buzzer, but after the red light that signifies the end of the half came on. The officials may have been distracted by the glowing light and not concerned with whether or not the ball went in on time.

The basket was consequently allowed and the UA lost the game by two points."

Honestly, I just want things to get better. I understand that officials have one of the hardest jobs in the world, but I think we need some replacements in the PAC 10.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by wildcatman

... This is from an article in the Daily Wildcat, from March 1st, 1995.

"Some other instances of blown calls this year include a basket credited to UCLA's Ed O'Bannon at the end of the first half against the UA at Pauley Pavilion. The basket appeared to go in before the buzzer, but after the red light that signifies the end of the half came on. The officials may have been distracted by the glowing light and not concerned with whether or not the ball went in on time.

The basket was consequently allowed and the UA lost the game by two points."

Yeah, you're a troll...thanks for the laugh

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by wildcatman
[
"Some other instances of blown calls this year include a basket credited to UCLA's Ed O'Bannon at the end of the first half against the UA at Pauley Pavilion. The basket appeared to go in before the buzzer, but after the red light that signifies the end of the half came on. The officials may have been distracted by the glowing light and not concerned with whether or not the ball went in on time.

The basket was consequently allowed and the UA lost the game by two points."

Honestly, I just want things to get better. I understand that officials have one of the hardest jobs in the world, but I think we need some replacements in the PAC 10.

And why is that a blown call??? It makes no difference when the ball goes in - only that the shot had left the player's hands before the red light came on...see, that's the problem here. You say these are bad calls, and those are bad calls, but you don't know what the rules are any better than our buddies Dick Vitale, Enberg, Rafftery, and the other commentators you get your info from...the Pac-10 hires some of the best officials in the country, and you come here complaining about them??? That makes a lot of sense...

[wildcatman]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
First you say you're willing to admit you don't know much about officiating, but then you say you know bad officiating when you see it. Yeah, that makes alot of sense.

Let me explain this in simpler terms for you. I may not know how to make a cake, but I can definitely tell you when a cake is good or bad. When everyone around me is feeling the same way, including the media, then I know something is wrong with the officiating:

Here's proof, again, please read: http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/wildcats/9469.php

Originally posted by TriggerMN
You have a problem with the officiating, sign up. Those of us in this forum will be more than happy to come watch you officiate a junior high game and berate you.

I know officiating is tough, but I feel like it should improve with time (Dave Libbey has been doing this for over 30 years). I haven't seen any improvement.

Originally posted by TriggerMN
How about some credit for the crew last night for being thick skinned as all of the idiot fans consistently yelled "BS" and "Hey ref F U!"

It's not their job to be thick-skinned. It's their job to be observant and fair. I think their performance was questionable. There is another thread about their performance last night, regarding an over-and-back call.

Originally posted by TriggerMN
The only reason you complain is because officials can't complain back. Think about how the world would be, and how stupid you would look, if the officials had the right to scream at stupid fans about all the rules they don't understand. If you want to see the problem, look in the mirror.

I will refrain from personally attacking you, and instead focus on the topic- poor officiating. I wanted to find something to do about it, something CONSTRUCTIVE, and I wound up here. When an official really does screw up, he may get suspended by his conference, but what compensation does the team get for the poor call? What if the poor call cost them a game, and affects their seeding or chances to go to their conference tourney? Even though there appears to be avenues of improvement, nothing changes. I want officials to work together more, to not be afraid to point out a bad call and reverse it. With three guys on the floor, I'm really surprised about some of the calls that are made in the PAC 10. And judging by the media's reaction, everyone else is too.



[Edited by wildcatman on Feb 20th, 2004 at 02:13 PM]