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Old Mon Jan 26, 2004, 04:08pm
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Unhappy

Team A has the ball. It is slapped loose and bounces off several sets of hands. Mad scramble for loose ball, with each team touching it a couple of times before A1 chases after it. A1 touches in in front court, but doesn't gain control until backcourt. I (as team B coach) call out "backcourt", not too loudly, but loud enough for the official across from me to hear. He responds back, "No possession, coach." I think about it for half a second, was embarassed to have yelled anything at all, and call back to him "I know, just wishing!" He smiled and went with the game. I became a total fan of the guy because of his court presence. In retrospect, I don't know if the call was totally correct or not, but frankly, I didn't care a bit.

Now the question, did A loose team control while the ball was being batted around? If not, did my official make the right call?
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Old Mon Jan 26, 2004, 04:16pm
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If Team B never gained possession of the ball, then Team A still had team control.

BC violation.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 26, 2004, 04:21pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch
Team A has the ball. It is slapped loose and bounces off several sets of hands. Mad scramble for loose ball, with each team touching it a couple of times before A1 chases after it. A1 touches in in front court, but doesn't gain control until backcourt. I (as team B coach) call out "backcourt", not too loudly, but loud enough for the official across from me to hear. He responds back, "No possession, coach." I think about it for half a second, was embarassed to have yelled anything at all, and call back to him "I know, just wishing!" He smiled and went with the game. I became a total fan of the guy because of his court presence. In retrospect, I don't know if the call was totally correct or not, but frankly, I didn't care a bit.

Now the question, did A loose team control while the ball was being batted around? If not, did my official make the right call?

Thats the old, cant be last to touch in FC, then first to touch in BC deal.

Violation.
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Old Mon Jan 26, 2004, 05:37pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch
He responds back, "No possession, coach." I think about it for half a second, was embarassed to have yelled anything at all, and call back to him "I know, just wishing!" He smiled and went with the game. I became a total fan of the guy because of his court presence.
Coach, you would have better off in this situation with an official that had a little more rules knowledge, and a little less "presence".

That should start it,eh?
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Old Mon Jan 26, 2004, 05:53pm
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Ooops

Referring to rule 4-12-3b (2001-02 Rule books) for definition of control:

"Team control continues until the opponent secures control."

Despite Team A fumbling the ball all over, and off Team B, Team A retains team control and is therefore still liable for a BC violaiton...

per Rule 9-9-1

if they are the last to touch in the FC (and thereby cause it to go into the BC) and first to touch in the BC.

I think overall, as officials we miss the correct call on these situations way too often. I know I have missed a couple this season but I'm getting better.
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Old Mon Jan 26, 2004, 08:23pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch
He responds back, "No possession, coach." I think about it for half a second, was embarassed to have yelled anything at all, and call back to him "I know, just wishing!" He smiled and went with the game. I became a total fan of the guy because of his court presence.
Coach, you would have better off in this situation with an official that had a little more rules knowledge, and a little less "presence".

That should start it,eh?
Yeah, it would have given us one more posession. However, compared to last week, when the officials were the weakest I've come across, he was pretty darn good. This call was the only issue I could find the whole game, and he handled is so well that I'd still take him for any games we play. Maybe he's not the best with the book, but he's very good on the court. He was always in position, made the early held ball calls (girls game), and showed a great deal of respect for the players and the coaches while maintaining control. There was plenty of incidental contact the whole game, but the fouls that were called were the right ones. We had more call against us than for us, but they were all good calls. He may never make it very high, but for where he is (MS CYO) he does the job.
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Old Mon Jan 26, 2004, 08:29pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch
He responds back, "No possession, coach." I think about it for half a second, was embarassed to have yelled anything at all, and call back to him "I know, just wishing!" He smiled and went with the game. I became a total fan of the guy because of his court presence.
Coach, you would have better off in this situation with an official that had a little more rules knowledge, and a little less "presence".

That should start it,eh?
Yeah, it would have given us one more posession. However, compared to last week, when the officials were the weakest I've come across, he was pretty darn good. This call was the only issue I could find the whole game, and he handled is so well that I'd still take him for any games we play. Maybe he's not the best with the book, but he's very good on the court. He was always in position, made the early held ball calls (girls game), and showed a great deal of respect for the players and the coaches while maintaining control. There was plenty of incidental contact the whole game, but the fouls that were called were the right ones. We had more call against us than for us, but they were all good calls. He may never make it very high, but for where he is (MS CYO) he does the job.
I'm not ripping you or the official, but something you wrote stuck out.

Why is making an early held ball call a good thing? A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

NOT when two players from opposite teams touch the ball at the same time.

NOT when the ball is laying in the midst of a pile of players.

Sorry, but this is one of my pet peeves. Call it a held ball when it actually is, by rule, a held ball.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 08:59am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Why is making an early held ball call a good thing? A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

NOT when two players from opposite teams touch the ball at the same time.

NOT when the ball is laying in the midst of a pile of players.

Sorry, but this is one of my pet peeves. Call it a held ball when it actually is, by rule, a held ball.

Sorry, Rich - last night was the first back, and I definately had 2 or 3 held balls that weren't .

Good guidelines above, though.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 09:16am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch
He responds back, "No possession, coach." I think about it for half a second, was embarassed to have yelled anything at all, and call back to him "I know, just wishing!" He smiled and went with the game. I became a total fan of the guy because of his court presence.
Coach, you would have better off in this situation with an official that had a little more rules knowledge, and a little less "presence".

That should start it,eh?
Yeah, it would have given us one more posession. However, compared to last week, when the officials were the weakest I've come across, he was pretty darn good. This call was the only issue I could find the whole game, and he handled is so well that I'd still take him for any games we play. Maybe he's not the best with the book, but he's very good on the court. He was always in position, made the early held ball calls (girls game), and showed a great deal of respect for the players and the coaches while maintaining control. There was plenty of incidental contact the whole game, but the fouls that were called were the right ones. We had more call against us than for us, but they were all good calls. He may never make it very high, but for where he is (MS CYO) he does the job.
I'm not ripping you or the official, but something you wrote stuck out.

Why is making an early held ball call a good thing? A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

NOT when two players from opposite teams touch the ball at the same time.

NOT when the ball is laying in the midst of a pile of players.

Sorry, but this is one of my pet peeves. Call it a held ball when it actually is, by rule, a held ball.
Rich, I couldn't agree with you more, it's just that with middle school girls, the likelyhood of one girl being strong enought to rip it out of the other girls hands is so slight that bodies can go flying and kids get hurt. The previous week, the slow whistles resulted in girls going to the floor on at least four occaisions in the first half alone, and in one case a girl got mildly hurt and could not return to the game. As you say "A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness." Maybe it's because boys hands are stronger, they are more likely to grip the ball with their hands when the ball is contested, but girls are likely to wrap their arms around the ball and use their bodies to try to get/maintain posession. I'm not saying that everytime two girls touch the ball at the same time a whistle should blow, I just saying that the officials who recognize this difference between boys and girls don't need to wait as long before the call. In my experience, it actually keeps the game going faster, keeps tempers under control better, and reduces the chances or injury.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 09:26am
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Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch
Team A has the ball. It is slapped loose and bounces off several sets of hands. Mad scramble for loose ball, with each team touching it a couple of times before A1 chases after it.

Now the question, did A loose team control while the ball was being batted around? If not, did my official make the right call?
I have removed the sentences indicating which team slapped the ball into BC. Let's say team B was the last team to touch it prior to going into BC. In this case team A can grab the ball in BC without a violation. Team control was not lost, but B was the last to touch the ball.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 10:10am
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Quote:
Originally posted by rafking
Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch
Team A has the ball. It is slapped loose and bounces off several sets of hands. Mad scramble for loose ball, with each team touching it a couple of times before A1 chases after it.

Now the question, did A loose team control while the ball was being batted around? If not, did my official make the right call?
I have removed the sentences indicating which team slapped the ball into BC. Let's say team B was the last team to touch it prior to going into BC. In this case team A can grab the ball in BC without a violation. Team control was not lost, but B was the last to touch the ball.
That's true but that's not the original play.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 10:19am
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Originally posted by CYO Butch
Rich, I couldn't agree with you more, it's just that with middle school girls, the likelyhood of one girl being strong enought to rip it out of the other girls hands is so slight that bodies can go flying and kids get hurt. The previous week, the slow whistles resulted in girls going to the floor on at least four occaisions in the first half alone, and in one case a girl got mildly hurt and could not return to the game. As you say "A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness." Maybe it's because boys hands are stronger, they are more likely to grip the ball with their hands when the ball is contested, but girls are likely to wrap their arms around the ball and use their bodies to try to get/maintain posession. I'm not saying that everytime two girls touch the ball at the same time a whistle should blow, I just saying that the officials who recognize this difference between boys and girls don't need to wait as long before the call. In my experience, it actually keeps the game going faster, keeps tempers under control better, and reduces the chances or injury.
What difference does it make whether a girl grabs the ball in her arms versus a boy who grabs the ball with his hands?

It's disappointing when people expect a quicker whistle in girls games because they're scraed the "little girls are going to get hurt." People complain all the time about girls games being called differently than boys, yet you advocate that so they won 't get hurt. Well, if they're concerned about their little girl getting hurt, then they should keep her at home and let her play with Barbies.

I call a girls game the same way I do boys. If there's the possibility of a held ball. I'll wait an extra second or two to see if someone will pull it away before it's an actual held ball. If I don't, sure enough, someone will pull it away just as the whistle blows.

If the players are on the floor, I'll blow it a little quicker simply because it's less likely that someone is going to come away with it and because I don't want players diving on the pile.

But those standards are for boys AND girls. One gender deserves no more protection than the other.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 11:18am
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Let's just thank the Lord that we don't have jump balls anymore. Middle school games would go on for hours.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 11:28am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch
Rich, I couldn't agree with you more, it's just that with middle school girls, the likelyhood of one girl being strong enought to rip it out of the other girls hands is so slight that bodies can go flying and kids get hurt. The previous week, the slow whistles resulted in girls going to the floor on at least four occaisions in the first half alone, and in one case a girl got mildly hurt and could not return to the game. As you say "A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness." Maybe it's because boys hands are stronger, they are more likely to grip the ball with their hands when the ball is contested, but girls are likely to wrap their arms around the ball and use their bodies to try to get/maintain posession. I'm not saying that everytime two girls touch the ball at the same time a whistle should blow, I just saying that the officials who recognize this difference between boys and girls don't need to wait as long before the call. In my experience, it actually keeps the game going faster, keeps tempers under control better, and reduces the chances or injury.
What difference does it make whether a girl grabs the ball in her arms versus a boy who grabs the ball with his hands?

It's disappointing when people expect a quicker whistle in girls games because they're scraed the "little girls are going to get hurt." People complain all the time about girls games being called differently than boys, yet you advocate that so they won 't get hurt. Well, if they're concerned about their little girl getting hurt, then they should keep her at home and let her play with Barbies.

I call a girls game the same way I do boys. If there's the possibility of a held ball. I'll wait an extra second or two to see if someone will pull it away before it's an actual held ball. If I don't, sure enough, someone will pull it away just as the whistle blows.

If the players are on the floor, I'll blow it a little quicker simply because it's less likely that someone is going to come away with it and because I don't want players diving on the pile.

But those standards are for boys AND girls. One gender deserves no more protection than the other.
I've noticed that when I officiate with people I don't know that they usually are the ones who get to the held ball first. It's especially embarassing when the ball is, essentially loose.

As far as the differences between girls and boys ball, I recognize that disadvantage from contact may come at different levels of contact between a boys game and a girls game. That doesn't mean that I call the game differently. Differences exist between individual players, after all.

I think it is insulting to girls and womens teams to try to "protect" them by discouraging aggressive play and hustle. Last week I had a classic held ball situation (well, had I been working with a quick whistle person) where a player reached in and momentarily shared possession with her opponent, then pulled the ball right out of her hands. Her coach was livid that I didn't blow it dead. I told him that if it came out that easy IT WASN'T held.

The reason why there seem to be a dozen held balls in girls games is probably because some of them shouldn't be called held balls.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 11:51am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch
Rich,
What difference does it make whether a girl grabs the ball in her arms versus a boy who grabs the ball with his hands?

It's disappointing when people expect a quicker whistle in girls games because they're scraed the "little girls are going to get hurt." People complain all the time about girls games being called differently than boys, yet you advocate that so they won 't get hurt. Well, if they're concerned about their little girl getting hurt, then they should keep her at home and let her play with Barbies.

I call a girls game the same way I do boys. If there's the possibility of a held ball. I'll wait an extra second or two to see if someone will pull it away before it's an actual held ball. If I don't, sure enough, someone will pull it away just as the whistle blows.

If the players are on the floor, I'll blow it a little quicker simply because it's less likely that someone is going to come away with it and because I don't want players diving on the pile.

But those standards are for boys AND girls. One gender deserves no more protection than the other.
Of course the standards are for boys And girls. The standard includes, and I quote again "A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness. Girls tend to wrap their arms around the ball, perhaps because their opponents are not strong enough to just pull it away quickly by brute force, perhaps for some other reason. In any case, that causes a situation in which "undue roughness" is much more likely. The officials are required to use their judgment as to when that line is crossed. I believe that the line gets crossed differently between girls and boys. Maybe there is the same amount of elapsed time that good officials wait to make their determination but since girls tend to wrestle longer than boys, it just seems that they tend to wait longer than necessary for girls. An official should not have to wait until kids go flying and undue roughness has already occurred before they can judge that undue roughness is the only way one kid will get the ball from another.

I assure you, I am not one who is afraid that "my little girl will get hurt" playing basketball, but neither am I one to watch kids getting hurt when an experienced official could prevent it by exercising good judgment.
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