sensitive issue

[JRutledge]

If it were me, all girls and women's games would be officiated by women. The problem is that there are not enough women to cover those games. Just like men are more inclined to be involved in sports, it filters into the officiating ranks too. I completely understand, I just feel that men should not be doing girls games for the most part. But that is just my opinion.

Originally posted by LadyRef
My reply was to BigDave, not you. He questioned if the best officials were getting promoted because those promoted were African-American men and women. But since you mentioned a few things, let me say this. I, too, am an official in Chicago. I, too, am an African-American. As a matter of fact, I work a good deal of girls and boys varsity games in the Chicago Public League and just as many varsity games in the North Shore, Western Suburbs and Northwest Suburbs. The assignors (all two of them) who assign the Chicago Public League are contracted with Chicago Public Schools/Board of Education. They do not assign on behalf of the Association, rather they assign on behalf of Chicago Public Schools. There has been on occasion, white officials who have attended association meetings. In fact, it was this same association (predominantly African-American) that took a white man down state to work the girls state tournament. You also mentioned Women's basketball and women officials being considered over men. Which gender do you think is given preferential consideration in men's basketball?

I might have met you. I am not sure but I did go to a couple of meetings of the MOA. Could you please email me so I can find out for sure?

[Edited by JRutledge on Nov 27th, 2000 at 11:40 PM]

[LadyRef]

Big Dave:

Let me begin by saying my response to you was not an attempt to put words in your mouth. I stand corrected in my presumption that you are WHITE or that you are even MALE. I also stand corrected, again, in my assumption that you were not hired in a JuCo tryout. My response was not meant to be inflamatory, however you mentioned your problem was "are the best officials getting hired," when the officials who were picked-up were black males or females. That remark led me to believe you reserved doubt on the quality of the officials hired because of their ethnicity. I can't help but wonder if the officials hired were White if you would have questioned their ability and/or qualifications. I'm trying, as I post, to find out how many minority officials and how many women officials work Division I. Historically, the sports arena has been dominated by White men. If by chance a little color has been added to the flavor, the question then becomes one of quality. When we put on our stipes and our polyester pants, we (officials inclusively) enter that 94 x 50 to do the best we can. Of course, we are not perfect but we officiate objectively and fairly. We hustle, get in position, trust our partners, call the obvious, stay in our primary and referee the defense. Well, that's some of what we're supposed to do.

[LadyRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge
If it were me, all girls and women's games would be officiated by women. The problem is that there are not enough women to cover those games. Just like men are more inclined to be involved in sports, it filters into the officiating ranks too. I completely understand, I just feel that men should not be doing girls games for the most part. But that is just my opinion.

I might have met you. I am not sure but I did go to a couple of meetings of the MOA. Could you please email me so I can find out for sure?

[Edited by JRutledge on Nov 27th, 2000 at 11:40 PM]

I can't say for sure if we met. I am a member of other associations as well. I won't go so far to say that only women officials should do girls and womens game. I agree, too, that the number of women officials is scarce. On the other hand, the competition among men officials to gain promotion is easier on the girls/womens side of b-ball as opposed to the boy/mens side. There are a number of male officials who prefer to work the boys/mens side, but have opted to work the other gender because the competition is either less competitive or at best, non-existent. This is my second year in obtaining a boys varsity schedule. I asked the assigner if my gender as a factor. He indicated to me that my work ethic, knowledge of the rules, dedication, professionalism, and my ability to get up and down the court, were factors he took into consideration. I am not the first woman to get a boys schedule--there are 5 of us women. We train in the off-season, go to camps, study game film, read, etc. Two of the five have already done state tournaments and hopefully, another one of us will be assigned. All of this is not to boast about how good I think we but rather to say we don't sluff-off. Every game to us is a big game.

[JRutledge]

associations also. I just have talked to all the women that have went to the prodomiately Black association and if you went to some of the meetings that they had in October, I at least introduced myself to you.

Of course I have no problem if women want to do the boys side. If you are cabable to keep up and run up and down the floor and call what is expected (and this goes for the men too), then more power to ya. I personally do mostly boys and I am not asked to do girls unless it is a situation that the assignor needs to fill a spot. Other than that my schedule is entirely boys.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by LadyRef
Big Dave:

...Historically, the sports arena has been dominated by White men...

Hmmm. I haven't seen too many white Sumo wrestlers,
bull fighters or even soccer players lately (excluding
Euro soccer, that is. I understand there's a lot of
white people in Europe.). I guess it just depends on how
big our tent is.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Hmmm. I haven't seen too many white Sumo wrestlers,
bull fighters or even soccer players lately (excluding
Euro soccer, that is. I understand there's a lot of
white people in Europe.). I guess it just depends on how
big our tent is.

Lets us not get silly. Sumo wrestlers and bullfighters and even soccer players are not the issue. And yes, in Europe many of the players are white. Most of those countries have mostly white people in them. Soccer is played all over the world and in those countries that have very little diversity like a Nigeria or Iran or even Brazil. That has got nothing to do with officiating in the United States of America. Sumo wrestling is not a major sport here, I believe that is Japan. Bull fighting is not a major sport here, I believe that is Spain and in Mexico.

Just a question, why do white people always need to find other things to justify their argument by going abroad or using examples that have nothing to do with the conversation? We are talking about officiating in the United States. This does not even have anything to do with officiating in other countries and practices. This is exclusively have to do with the people that make the decisions here. In our state, I can only think of one 2 assignors that are not white. The other two are African-American and assign for the Chicago Public League. I am sure that there are more, but these are the only one I have ever seen. And I am talking about more than one sport.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Lets us not get silly...

Just a question, why do white people always ...

Hey rut, our friend LadyRef is obviously intelligent and can
speak for herself in an eloquent manner. Maybe you should
sit this one out, OK?

[rockyroad]

Interesting topic...just as Lady Ref's feathers got a little ruffled earlier, the comment in the last post "Why do white people alwys..." ruffled mine...don't make assumptions about people based on their skin color. That's racism...as far as the topic, I have personally been told by a Div. 1 assignor that I would not be picked up because they needed more women - even though that assignor felt I was a better official...that's the way the game is played...like it or leave it...

[mick]

Originally posted by JRutledge
[B
Lets us not get silly. Sumo wrestlers and bullfighters and even soccer players are not the issue. And yes, in Europe many of the players are white. Most of those countries have mostly white people in them. Soccer is played all over the world and in those countries that have very little diversity like a Nigeria or Iran or even Brazil. That has got nothing to do with officiating in the United States of America. Sumo wrestling is not a major sport here, I believe that is Japan. Bull fighting is not a major sport here, I believe that is Spain and in Mexico.

Just a question, why do white people always need to find other things to justify their argument by going abroad or using examples that have nothing to do with the conversation? We are talking about officiating in the United States. This does not even have anything to do with officiating in other countries and practices. This is exclusively have to do with the people that make the decisions here. In our state, I can only think of one 2 assignors that are not white. The other two are African-American and assign for the Chicago Public League. I am sure that there are more, but these are the only one I have ever seen. And I am talking about more than one sport. [/B]

[JRutledge]

That is not all racism. I am simply asking the question why when someone brings a debate to white individuals, and I do recall that is what Lady Ref point was going, and this is what happens in all these dicussions. We were not talking about any other sport other than basketball, and I want someone to explain when we talk about race on any level we "white men" always have to bring up things that do not relate to the topic at hand.

I think Lady Ref's point is a valid one. It did seem like the implication is that the only factor for consideration is our race, and we are not qualified or do not have the skills to officiate what we are given. We are no more qualified or unqualified then other officials I have seen, regardless of race.

Originally posted by rockyroad
Interesting topic...just as Lady Ref's feathers got a little ruffled earlier, the comment in the last post "Why do white people alwys..." ruffled mine...don't make assumptions about people based on their skin color. That's racism...as far as the topic, I have personally been told by a Div. 1 assignor that I would not be picked up because they needed more women - even though that assignor felt I was a better official...that's the way the game is played...like it or leave it...

[savoir-vivre]

I have read the post(s) regarding "sensitive issue", with guarded concern. BigDave raises the question of color versus competence as it relates to the assignment process. He relates definite knowledge that at the last JuCo tryout that, "...all officials that were picked up were black males or females." He then clearly states, "My problem with this is, are the best officials getting promoted?...what does this say to the up and coming official (myself) about staying consistent and working towards the JuCo goal?"

Subsequent responses range from a benign and banal defense for "Black officials", grandiose ideation about a five year career, unsubstantiated and incorrect statistics about the participation of women and blacks in the sport and tangential comparison of business and society to the original post. The question is pointedly and correctly addressed by LadyRef.

The veiled reference in BigDave's post is that perhaps the best official's were not selected because they were Afican-American. He clearly identifies the process as being a problem for him and questions it's impact on the up and coming official. Surely, we can agree BigDave is not speaking about the up and coming African-American official and we can obviously agree that he is not of that genre.

I would point out to BigDave that putting incompetent or the least competent official on the floor, would be a bane to any assignor. His/her continued employment in that capacity, is directly impacted by the people they employ. The assignment process however, is rarely an objective event.

Criterion for obtaining games differ greatly from conference to conference, association to association, as well as, on the various levels (elem., highschool, juco, college and the pros). Add to this mixture nepotism, friendship, gender, indebtedness, indenture(the five year rule) and ethnicity, we can all agree, this process has historically been both prejudicial and extremely subjective, irrespective to the specter of "unwarranted" promotion.

I submit to you that this process will remain arbitrary until someone with a litigous spirit, willing to lose to gain, attacks it in the proper arena. Perhaps, it will be LadyRef, the most courageous view to this post.

[JRutledge]

[comments deleted by Administrator - please stay on topic]

Qualifications mean nothing but to the people that make the decisions. Did it ever occur to anyone, that maybe they were the best officials?

[Edited by Admin on Nov 29th, 2000 at 01:09 PM]

[BigDave]

Now that we've all had a couple of days to ponder the initial post of mine, let's get back to the first issue. Is the situation we've discussed a part of the officiating business? Yes or no?

This all came about after I discussed it with two of my partners/friends at a tourney this past week. Yes, they were black. Yes, they were two of the guys mentioned that were picked up for JuCo this year. Over a drink or two, we chatted about this issue.

Thanks for your thoughts.

And to LadyRef, I ain't mad at ya... Maybe one day, you'll toss it as I chop the clock on the big game.

Good Luck to all of you.

[Glenn Lampman]

With the profession being "white " for ever it is about time that the minority (race or gender) be given a chance. But regardless of the race or gender, you have to have the ability! something, or someone, can get you there, only your ability can keep you there. As a white assigner, who tries his best to be objective, I welcome and search out females and minorities and strongly encourage them to stay with officiating. We presently have 45 Varsity rated officials. Of those 45,11 are minority and 4 are female. I would like to have more female members but you all know the difficulties of recruiting females. I know that in our area that the upper levels (I assign HS and below) 2 year college, NIAA and the NCAA divisions certainly are picking up minorities and females when they are competent and available. Does it seem unfair? Probably,when the white official who has been around for 20 years looks at it. but even in the "old days" there were those officials on the "fast track" that moved up and everyone talked about it.
NO different, except that some white officials now know what minorities and female officials have experienced for years!! We have a great fraternity of people and the greater mix of people we get involved, at all levels, they better and stronger we become..

[Camron Rust]

It all boils down to the fact that picking/hiring someone based on race or gender is wrong no matter the direction. Discrimination of yesterday where white males received all the good jobs is no more or less wrong that choosing a female or minority over a male or white person based on that factor. In the past, blacks and women were held back inspite of even great ability. Now, they are advanced (at times) in spite of ability. Both situations are equally wrong.

To justify the decision as a desire for diversity is just an excuse. It may help a group avoid political pressures for a while. But, it helps noone in the long run to have an unequal playing field. Doing so fosters resentment and prolongs the false idea that a group of people is inherently inferior to the others since they "need" false assistance to advance. Those that highly succeed in this society are largely those that reach their success through achievement, determination, and effort on a level or even uphill playing field and not discriminatory assistance.