3? 2?

[Larks]

NF - Books at home (man I gotta put em in the car!)

Play: Player A1 lobs a long pass from midcourt to A2 going to the basket. The pass was overthrown and close to the basket. In (A) B2 guarding A2 inside the 3pt arc swats at the ball and tips the ball into the basket! In (B) B2 ttouches the ball standing outside the 3pt arc. In both cases, the ball is legally touched (ie no Goal tend or BI)

How many points for A?

Please cite rule or casebook.

Larks
VIT

[Grail]

Don't have my books with me, but it's come up here before.

B touching the ball does not change the value of the shot. If A shoots from beyond the Arc, count 3 points.

[Hawks Coach]

The way that I read this, you have a long lob which implies to me that it was above the rim. It then comes down and is touched legally - no BI/goaltending is what you said. In that case, even though you would originally construe A's throw as a shot, the attempt ends when the ball comes below the rim.

B's touching is not an atempt, therefore both of your scenarios result in a two-point basket.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

FED4-40-4 Try ends when offical is certain that it is unsucessful. If you the official deem that the try will be no good then the swat by B causing the ball to go in is two points for A. If there is thought that the try might be sucessful then goaltend on B. Two or three points depending upon where the try was released. However, (I think we had a heated dic. on this last year)the way I read this specific case, when the ball was released it was never intended to be a try. In that case score two points for A even if the ball goes through the hoop w/ no one touching it no matter where the "pass" is released. 4-40-2 defines what is and what is not a try.

[w_sohl]

Not true, a pass from beyond the arc is three if it goes in, even if you are 100% sure it was a pass.

[Hawks Coach]

wsohl
The issue here is not pass vs shot - a pass from behind the arc is treated as a shot if it goes in. A shot or a pass that is legally deflected by B and then goes in the basket is a basket, and counts for the points it would have scored had it gone in from the initial shot without a touch by B. That is clear. So if B deflected A's attempted pass on it's way up, then the pass went in the goal, this play would be worth the 3 points A would have gotten had B never touched it.

If B touches A's pass on the way down but ball is still above the rim, the question is one of whether or not this constitutes goal tending. If it does constitue goaltending, you have three points for A. If it does not, then you have ruled that A's try had no chance to go in, and by rule the try ended. The basket is then due to B's tap, and that is worth 2 points only regardless of where it occurred on the court.

A shot or a pass (considered by rule to be a try) is no longer a try when it goes below the rim because it cannot go in the basket. Then any touching by B caused the inadvertent basket. B cannot have a try on goal, so B's touching in this circumstance results in two points.

[w_sohl]

I was refering to the last sentence of MN 3 Sport Ref's post.

[Hawks Coach]

wsohl - sorry - that's what happens when you read a little too quickly and don't catch the connections. Your response to mn is correct, as you surely know.

[ChuckElias]

Score 3 points in both cases. See 5-2-1.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Score 3 points in both cases. See 5-2-1.

Disagree. Score 2 points in both cases. See 4.40.4SitB.

[ronny mulkey]

Jurassic,

Are you sure? That is not the way I read 5.2.1 when the defense legally touches the "lob".

Mulk

[nine01c]

I'm with Chuck. The play is like 5.2.1 SitC the way I understand it. The ball is up near the basket, and B2 legally touches it for 3 points. In 4.40.4 SitB, the play involves a ball that has fallen below the ring level and B2 did not legally touch it (it bounced off the shoulder), thus the 2 points. Falling below the ring level or not is how I would determine the score of this play (2 or 3).

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Disagree. Score 2 points in both cases. See 4.40.4SitB.

Have a nap, then check 5.2.1 Situation C. I think you'll change your mind

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Have a nap, then check 5.2.1 Situation C. I think you'll change your mind

Had my nap. Still disagree. 5.2.1SitC has to presume that the ball is still on the way up when it is legally touched. In the sitch posted,the ball was thrown from mid-court- which is the 42' mark in a high school gym. It's now legally touched just outside or inside the 3 point line- at least 21 feet away. Unless Wilt's come back to life, I can't think of a realistic scenario where a defender could possibly touch the ball legally on the way up after it has travelled that far. I'll go with Hawks Coach's answer above- shot ended with the touching because it had no chance to go in.That's the premise of 4.40.4SitB, which I think is applicable in this case.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by nine01c
In 4.40.4 SitB, the play involves a ball that has fallen below the ring level and B2 did not legally touch it (it bounced off the shoulder), thus the 2 points.

Please cite a rule to me that states B2 has illegally touched the ball when it bounces off his shoulder. Are you gonna call B2 for GT for this "illegal" touching?