does 10 second count not start over in D1 any more?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A timeout isn't a steep price to pay to simply avoid a ten second violation?

It is when you only get one full time out and three 30s and one of the 30s doesn't carry over to the second half.

College rules are written by college coaches and college athletic directors. They want it that way. The rule was changed a few years ago for a reason. Because that's what college teams want.

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[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by thedewed

OK, then that rule has changed since I officiated a decade or so ago. Used to be a reset and new 10 seconds. that explains why no one complained. lol.

Just curious, anyone remember when it was changed? It is a change for the better, although doesn't make sense you can call t/o to get a reset.

thanks,

I really do not remember. I know since the shot clock was at 30 for sure. I have worked a few leagues over the last 4 or 5 years and that rule has been in place I am sure for that time frame. But I have worked college ball for over 10 years.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Since you have no idea, I'm not sure why you're throwing stuff up against the wall.

I opined (with a question mark, the word "could", and a declaration about my lack of NCAA rules knowledge) because of this.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... we could have the same confusion in a NFHS game with shot clock.

Shot clock is coming to Connecticut next year.

We have to be prepared to do some mental subtraction.

Twenty-five will not always be the "magic number".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

It is when you only get one full time out and three 30s and one of the 30s doesn't carry over to the second half.

Which is why I ended my post with a question mark, expecting an affirmative answer, "Yes, it is a steep price".

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A timeout isn't a steep price to pay to simply avoid a ten second violation?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I opined because of this.



Shot clock is coming to Connecticut next year.

We have to be prepared to do some mental subtraction.

Twenty-five will not always be the "magic number".

We've already had multiple conversations about the shot clock and the fact that the NCAA has specific rules about it and the NFHS so far has not been very detail oriented. So you throwing stuff up against the wall now is not going to help you next year.

The only thing that's going to help you next year is either the NFHS updating its rules or your state publishing something specific.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

... the shot clock and the fact that the NCAA has specific rules about it and the NFHS so far has not been very detail oriented ... The only thing that's going to help you next year is either the NFHS updating its rules or your state publishing something specific.

Agree. I certainly hope that my state association and state board clarify exactly how were going to handle certain shot clock situations.

However, my main interest in this thread was in regard to the NCAA ten second rule and it's "continuation" in some situations (that I had absolutely no knowledge of before JRutledge's first post this thread) where we would always restart it in high school.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... might help me to understand the reasoning of an irate and confused high school coach who sees one rule on television and another in my game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

We've already had multiple conversations about the shot clock and the fact that the NCAA has specific rules about it and the NFHS so far has not been very detail oriented. So you throwing stuff up against the wall now is not going to help you next year.

The only thing that's going to help you next year is either the NFHS updating its rules or your state publishing something specific.

I am going to disagree a little here. I think the NF has given more information on the guidelines for this than just about every other situation I can think of. They have had publications that state how other levels operate and how they intend to operate. They made it pretty clear they were not adopting some rules the NCAA had in place. And saying that a new 10-second count is one of them. Referee Magazine had a great article about the differences in Men's college and NF and even the NBA. Things like rebounds by the offense to a backcourt out of bounds after a ball hits the rim. I cannot complain hardly one bit about the information the NF put out there in this specific situation. They did well IMO.

NF Shot Clock Guidelines

Peace

[thedewed]

no, I dont think its fair to avoid a violation with a timout

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am going to disagree a little here. I think the NF has given more information on the guidelines for this than just about every other situation I can think of. They have had publications that state how other levels operate and how they intend to operate. They made it pretty clear they were not adopting some rules the NCAA had in place. And saying that a new 10-second count is one of them. Referee Magazine had a great article about the differences in Men's college and NF and even the NBA. Things like rebounds by the offense to a backcourt out of bounds after a ball hits the rim. I cannot complain hardly one bit about the information the NF put out there in this specific situation. They did well IMO.



NF Shot Clock Guidelines



Peace

Oh, then that's where Billy should be getting his shot clock information from and not really worrying about what the NCAA does.

Hadn't really looked at the high school rulebook in regards to the shot clock this year since my state has resisted it so far

When I'm observing an NCAA game, it's definitely one of the top priorities of what officials need to take care of.

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[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by thedewed

no, I dont think its fair to avoid a violation with a timout

Timeouts are valuable. There are a lot of violations saved by timeouts. Why not this situation too?

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Oh, then that's where Billy should be getting his shot clock information from and not really worrying about what the NCAA does.

Hadn't really looked at the high school rulebook in regards to the shot clock this year since my state has resisted it so far

When I'm observing an NCAA game, it's definitely one of the top priorities of what officials need to take care of.

Absolutely agree. And anyone could read this and figure it out. Had a tournament this past week that used one and the issues were minimal. We even talked about it with the last game I did in that tournament how we would handle the clock so we were all on the same page. No issues that game, Thank God!!!!

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Oh, then that's where Billy should be getting his shot clock information from and not really worrying about what the NCAA does.

I've never really worried too much about the NCAA shot clock with two exceptions. First, Connecticut has been using a shot clock in private prep school varsity games for over thirty years using a hybrid high school version of NCAA rules, requiring shot clock knowledge (not 100% NCAA kosher) on my part. Second, as states went to shot clocks one at a time like falling dominoes, and knowing that the shot clock was eventually coming down the Connecticut pike, I took a little more than a passing interest in various shot clock guidelines.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... anyone could read this and figure it out.

Agree.

Connecticut is going to the shot clock for varsity (shot clock will be optional in subvarsity games) games next year. Haven't heard too much about any changes to the published NFHS guidelines so far other than our local (not state board interpreter nor state governing body) board interpreter seems to think that we will continue to use a visible ten second count at all times, possibly starting on backcourt "possessions", but that's just one opinion from a local board interpreter.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I've never really worried too much about the NCAA shot clock with two exceptions. First, Connecticut has been using a shot clock in private prep school varsity games for over thirty years using a hybrid high school version of NCAA rules, requiring shot clock knowledge on my part. Second, as states went to shot clocks one at a time like falling dominoes, and knowing that the shot clock was eventually coming down the Connecticut pike, I took a little more than a passing interest in various shot clock guidelines.



Agree.

Connecticut is going to the shot clock for varsity (shot clock will be optional in subvarsity games) games next year. Haven't heard too much about any changes to the published NFHS guidelines so far other than our local (not state board interpreter nor state governing body) board interpreter seems to think that we will continue to use a visible ten second count at all times, possibly starting on backcourt "possessions", but that's just one opinion from a local board interpreter.

Jeff posted the current NFHS rules. Anything still questionable should be addressed to them or your state.

I just don't see the purpose of throwing stuff up against the wall in regards to a play that happened in an NCAA Men's game. Since you don't know the rules, why add anything to the scenario? Don't we have enough officials here who know the rules who will eventually answer the question for the person?

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Anything that still questionable should be addressed to them or your state.

Since the NFHS recently came out with more detailed high school shot clock guidelines, there is no need for me to address anybody at this time about anything high school shot clock related (I did have some questions about starting the shot clock (touch) two years ago when the NFHS first decided to allow shot clocks and came out with what I considered to be incomplete or ambiguous guidelines, still do in some respects).

I'm fairly confident that the CIAC and the IAABO Connecticut State Board will publicize easy to understand (or at least as easy to understand as shot clock guidelines can be) Connecticut shot clock guidelines (under the doctrine of states’ rights, that may be the same, or different, than the NFHS guidelines) in the fall of 2023. I do know that the IAABO Connecticut State Board is aware of the ambiguity regarding when the shot clock starts, touch with a shot clock, and possession with no shot clock. I'm curious to see how we handle that here in Connecticut.

Originally Posted by Raymond

Don't we have enough officials here who know the rules who will eventually answer the question ...

Yes we certainly do.

At the time of my first post I had no idea that the NCAA ten second rule, other than the count start on a touch rather than a possession, was so much different than the NFHS ten second rule, not starting a new ten second count as we do in the high school game after the ball deflects off the defense out of bounds in the backcourt.

I was wrong, so shoot me for not knowing what I don't know.

On the other hand, ignorantia legis neminem excusat (ignorance of law excuses no one).

Note: I've been watching Perry Mason reruns on late night cable.

Not knowing, or even considering for a second, that there could be that much of a difference in the two rule sets regarding this specific situation, I came up with a plausible, but incorrect answer, (thedewed, a former college official, thought the same as me) ...

Originally Posted by thedewed

that is what happened ...

... that the official failed to mentally subtract time from the shot clock that he used to "count" ten seconds ...

... a possible real-game problem for those of us who now, or in the future, might use the shot clock to "count" ten seconds in our high school games, high school games where the ten second count (but not the shot clock) is "reset" to ten seconds after the ball deflects off the defense out of bounds in the backcourt.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Twenty-five will not always be the "magic number".

And here's another reason why I've become so interested this NCAA thread:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... it might help me to understand the reasoning of an irate and confused high school coach who sees one rule on television and another in my game.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A timeout isn't a steep price to pay to simply avoid a ten second violation?

And is the 80%-of-a-count rule still a thing too?