Whistle Dead Ball

[Rich1]

Almost all of the time the whistle is simply notifying the players to stop playing because the ball is dead, it is not the whistle that makes creates the dead ball. When the violation occurs the ball (not in flight during a try) becomes dead. When the foul occurs the ball (not in flight during a try) becomes dead.

If for some reason your whistle falls out of your mouth or is broken creating a longer than usual delay before you blow the whistle, anything that occurred in the time it took between the violation, foul, time-out request, etc. and the sounding of said whistle would not be allowed to stand (ie. counting a basket after a dribbler steps out of bounds and then makes a basket before the whistle gets blown).

This is why I posed the question - if we accept that the ball is already dead in most instances, what would be the situations where it is the actual blowing of the whistle that causes the dead ball. Most of the time there is not much delay between the act and the whistle so its usually not an issue. But, I do enjoy thinking through these sort of queries to strengthen my knowledge.

And, 5-5-1 and 6-7-9 (and probably a few more) do not seem to match Fundamental #16.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Almost all of the time the whistle is simply notifying the players to stop playing ...

... Whistle also "signals" the timekeeper stop the clock.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... Whistle also "signals" the timekeeper stop the clock.

That is true in the NBA. In amateur basketball, the raised hand (with a fist if a foul is ruled) is the signal to stop the clock.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

That is true in the NBA. In amateur basketball, the raised hand (with a fist if a foul is ruled) is the signal to stop the clock.

NFHS 5-8: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, must be stopped when an official: Signals a foul, held ball, violation, timeout.

Rule doesn't state audio or visual signal, implying a level of redundancy.

Also, at one point NCAA did use precision timing, based on sound of the whistle, not the movement of an arm.

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

[I]Rule doesn't state audio or visual signal, implying a level of redundancy.

Maybe not, but the mechanics state that the hand in the air is the stop clock signal. The whistle is more like an attention getting device, not a signal. If that little pea fell out of your whistle you should be able to yell really loudly and put your hand up with similar effect.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

If that little pea fell out of your whistle you should be able to yell really loudly and put your hand up with similar effect.

Agree. Of course, the "yell" is also an audio signal.

In the case of a non-functioning whistle (spit it out, dropped it, etc.) the visual signal alone should stop the clock, and if high school ever has a future replay monitor, one should be able to check the time with a visual signal.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... spit it out, dropped it, etc. ...

... includes forgetting to put the whistle in my mouth, and not having a whistle (leaving it in my jacket pocket at the table) on my person.

Yeah, hate to admit it, but I've done both.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In the case of a non-functioning whistle (spit it out, dropped it, etc.) the visual signal alone should stop the clock, and if high school ever has a future replay monitor, one should be able to check the time with a visual signal.

... with no high school replay monitor, if I had a "spit my whistle out" (non-functioning whistle) episode, and I got a good look at the clock as I put my arm up, I would have no qualms about adding time to the clock as I had definite knowledge, this being not limited to, but especially in, an end-of-period situation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

... but the mechanics state that the hand in the air is the stop clock signal.

My IAABO signal chart states that, but my IAABO Mechanics Manual states that one should simultaneously sound one's whistle and give a visual signal.

I don't have access to a NFHS Mechanics Manual.

[Mike Goodwin]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

My IAABO signal chart states that, but my IAABO Mechanics Manual states that one should simultaneously sound one's whistle and give a visual signal.

I don't have access to a NFHS Mechanics Manual.

NFHS Officials Manual

Violations: Give a sharp single blast of the whistle and fully extend one arm above the head with fingers extended to stop the clock.

Fouls: Sound the whistle with a single sharp blast while raising one hand, fist clenched, straight and high above the head.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS 5-8: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, must be stopped when an official: Signals a foul, held ball, violation, timeout.

"Signals"?

It could be a tap on the shoulder. A physical touch. "Excuse me young man, that was a travel".

When I find an old hard boiled egg that rolled to the back of the refrigerator, a "signal" to me that it could be bad is its odor.

I'm trying to think of an odor that officials could emit as a signal, but choose not to bring that to a final conclusion.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"Signals"?

It could be a tap on the shoulder. A physical touch. "Excuse me young man, that was a travel".

When I find an old hard boiled egg that rolled to the back of the refrigerator, a "signal" to me that it could be bad is its odor.

I'm trying to think of an odor that officials could emit as a signal, but choose not to bring that to a final conclusion.

How is this relevant? In the rulebook and mechanics manual, "signal" has a specific meaning. A signal is a specific movement of the hand(s) and/or arm(s), occasionally of a foot, to indicate a specific action related to the game (signalling a foul, violation, timeout, or other stoppage of play (held ball/jump ball)).

Rich1 is right that the signal and whistle happen, or at least ought to happen simultaneously. The reason is that the timer can react to the visual signal if he failed to hear the whistle (or the whistle fails to sound). If there is only the whistle, but no visual signal to stop the clock, it is possible that the timer may not stop the clock on time. The reason why this is a moot point at higher levels is because they have special technology allowing the game and shot clocks to stop when the whistle is blown.

At the NFHS and lower college levels, it is important for officials to signal that the game clock is to stop, to avoid such errors. At the Division 1 level, with precision timing, stopping the clock with a signal is important for redundancy, in case the whistle fails to sound, and for instant replay, to correct timing errors.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

How is this relevant? In the rulebook and mechanics manual, "signal" has a specific meaning. A signal is a specific movement of the hand(s) and/or arm(s), occasionally of a foot, to indicate a specific action related to the game (signaling a foul, violation, timeout, or other stoppage of play (held ball/jump ball)).

I contend that the word "signal" in the actual rule is used as a generic verb (as opposed to the NFHS and IAABO "signal" charts, in which case it's used as a specific noun), and can be a visual signal, and an audio signal (and I also joked about a physical touch, or an odor, as a signal).

NFHS 5-8: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, must be stopped when an official: Signals a foul, held ball, violation, timeout.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

The reason is that the timer can react to the visual signal if he failed to hear the whistle (or the whistle fails to sound). If there is only the whistle, but no visual signal to stop the clock, it is possible that the timer may not stop the clock on time.

While most high school timers may (note that I said "may") be real good at watching for officials to "chop in" time, I seriously doubt they all actually watch for visual signals to stop the clock.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

The reason why this is a moot point at higher levels is because they have special technology allowing the game and shot clocks to stop when the whistle is blown.

This "special technology" is allowed in high school games (under certain conditions), but is almost never used.

Again, the word "signal" in the actual rule is used as a generic verb and can be a visual signal, and an audio signal.

Also, I agree fully with ilyazhito's statement about audio and visual signaling redundancy.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

At the NFHS and lower college levels, it is important for officials to signal that the game clock is to stop,

No signal needed for some violations in NCAAW. All levels.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

5-5-1 and 6-7-9 do not seem to match Fundamental #16.

I don't see any contradiction between 6-7-9 and Basketball Rule Fundamental #16.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Basketball Rule Fundamental #16: The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

Originally Posted by BillyMac

6-7-9: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when: A violation, as in 9-2 through 13, occurs (exception for opponent leaving court for unauthorized reason, or swinging elbows excessively).