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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 10:19am
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Wrong Number & Legal vs Illegal Entry

We need the forum to help settle a difference of interpretation.

Player A6 reports to the table as a sub wearing #12 and is beckoned onto the court by the referee. Before the ball becomes live the table recognizes that this player is listed in the book as #10, the referees are informed, and issue a technical. The debate centers around the following questions:

When does the sub with an illegal or incorrect number become a player? Rule 3-3-3 says "a substitute becomes a player when he legally enters the court; if entry is not legal then he becomes a player when the ball becomes live". Does the first sentence apply because he entered the court legally when he was beckoned or does the second sentence apply because this would not be "entering legally" since his number is wrong?

Can the coach decide not to play this player and avoid the Tech? Again, some are hanging there hat on the fact that if the sub does not enter the game and PLAY with the wrong number then we can't give the Tech. It seems the confusion stems from the fact that a coach can decide not to play a player with an illegal number to avoid the T but does this apply to a player with the wrong number?

Most of us are going with rule 3-2-1 and 3-2-2 which state that the names and numbers of all team members must be in the book by the 10 minute mark and since #10 is a team member but was listed with the wrong number it does not matter whether or not he becomes a player, the book must be changed when the error is discovered and and a Tech must be given.

It should also be noted that a team member with an illegal number who is listed in the book (penalized if he participates) is not the same as a team member listed with the wrong number (penalized when discovered regardless of participation).

Does rule 3-3-3 apply here at all or is this simply a situation where the book MUST be changed (resulting in a T) even if #10 never gets up off the bench?
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 10:36am
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Legally Enters The Court ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich1 View Post
When does the sub with an illegal or incorrect number become a player? Rule 3-3-3 says "a substitute becomes a player when he legally enters the court; if entry is not legal then he becomes a player when the ball becomes live". Does the first sentence apply because he entered the court legally when he was beckoned ...
Yes. Legally enters the court, legally meaning beckoned, enters is self explanatory.

Note: The technical foul is actually not for the incorrect number, but rather for changing the number in the scorebook.
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 10:45am
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Avoided Detection ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich1 View Post
Can the coach decide not to play this player and avoid the Tech?
Yes. And if the incorrectly numbered player somehow avoided detection the first time he entered (maybe he didn't foul or score), and is then taken out of the game, it's too late to penalize. For example if the scorekeeper tells the officials at the intermission (not a timeout) between the first and second period, that an incorrectly numbered player participated in the first period, but is now bench personnel, it's too late to penalize, and if the coach hearing that decides to keep the incorrectly numbered player on the bench for the rest of the game to avoid penalty, then the officials can not penalize.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 27, 2022 at 12:30pm.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 10:49am
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Supply Rosters ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich1 View Post
.... the names and numbers of all team members must be in the book by the 10 minute mark ...
Not true. Each team must supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member (rosters) by the 10 minute mark.
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 10:55am
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For The Good Of The Cause ...

3-2-1: At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team must supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul (see 10-1-1 Penalty).

10-1-1: A team must not: Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.
Penalty: One foul for both requirements. Penalized when it occurs.

3-2-2: After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1, a team is charged with a maximum of one technical foul regardless of how many infractions of the following are committed (see 10-1-2 Penalty):
a. Changing a designated starter, unless necessitated by illness, injury, illegal equipment or apparel, etc., or to attempt a technical foul free throw.
b. Adding a name to the team member list.
c. Requiring the scorer to change a team member’s or player’s number in the scorebook.
d. Requiring a player to change to the number in the scorebook.
e. Having identical numbers on team members and/or players.

10-1-2: After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1:
a. Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a.
b. Add a name to the team member list.
c. Require the scorer to change a team member’s or player’s number in the scorebook.
d. Require a player to change to the number in the scorebook.
e. Have identical numbers on team members and/or players.
Penalty: (Art. 2) One foul only per team regardless of the number of infractions. (Art. 2a) Penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live to start the game. (Arts. 2b, c, d) Penalized when they occur. (Art. 2e) Penalized when discovered. Head coach does not lose the privilege of the coaching box.
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 10:59am
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Illegal Uniform ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich1 View Post
... team member with an illegal number who is listed in the book (penalized if he participates)...
Technically, an illegal uniform.

10-6-4: The head coach must not permit a team member to participate while wearing an illegal uniform (see 3-4). Penalized when discovered. Only one technical foul is charged regardless of the number of offenders.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 27, 2022 at 11:04am.
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 11:03am
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Identical Numbers ...

It's important to note the identical numbers are penalized immediately when discovered, whether in the scorebook, or in the game, after the ten minute mark.

3-2-2-E: Having identical numbers on team members and/or players.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 27, 2022 at 11:33am.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 11:05am
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Case 3.2.2B and 3.2.2C seem on-point. If #12/10 becomes a player (as he did by being beckoned) and the error is discovered, it's a T. If the individual does not become a player, then it's not a T. IOW, we don't care what numbers bench personnel wear, as long as they are not duplicates.

Note that some would say that the second part of case 3.2.2C is "wrong" -- once the individual becomes a player, it will be a T, even if the error is discovered while that individual has been removed from the game and is no longer playing. But, until NFHS changes it ....
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 11:09am
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Confused In Connecticut ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich1 View Post
We need the forum to help settle a difference of interpretation.
Agree that the "statute of limitations" for these various number (wrong number, illegal number, identical numbers) and scorebook issues can be confusing. In fact, some of my interpretations above may be incorrect.
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 11:14am
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Always Listen To bob ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Case 3.2.2B and 3.2.2C seem on-point.
3.2.2 SITUATION A: Team A properly submits its team member list and designates its five starters. However, the number for each team member is incorrect. The error is not detected until after the game has started. RULING: Only one team technical foul is charged regardless of the number of players and substitutes not wearing the number indicated in the scorebook. Each player must wear the number indicated in the scorebook or change the scorebook number to that which he/she is wearing. Any substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the scorebook will not result in a penalty as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for an administrative infraction. (10-1-1 Penalty)

3.2.2 SITUATION B: Three minutes before the game starts, it is discovered: (a) two Team B members have wrong numbers in the scorebook; or (b) two Team B team members are wearing the same number. RULING: In (a), if either or both team member’s number is changed in the scorebook, one technical foul is charged to Team B. If there is no request for change or if neither becomes a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty. In (b), a technical foul is charged to Team B upon discovery of the identical numbers. Only one team member may wear a given number; the other must change to a number not already in use before participating. (10-1-2)

3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2. The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-1-2b)

3.2.2 SITUATION D: Team A properly submits its team member list and designates the five starters as required at least 10 minutes before the scheduled start of the game. Anytime thereafter, either before the game starts or during the game, the coach asks the scorer to change a number in the scorebook: (a) so it corresponds to what the team member is wearing; (b) because a player’s shirt has excessive blood on it; or (c) because a player’s shirt is torn. RULING: In (a), a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b) and (c), the shirt is changed and the number change made in the scorebook without any penalty.
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 11:36am
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So the answer is...

In this scenario since the team member reported to the table and became a player when he was beckoned onto the court by the official we are now required to change the number in the book even if the ball has not become live.
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 11:55am
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Dead Ball ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich1 View Post
In this scenario since the team member reported to the table and became a player when he was beckoned onto the court by the official we are now required to change the number in the book even if the ball has not become live.
I believe that we change the number in the book and penalize, even if the ball is dead.

"Penalized when they occur"? "They" means changing the scorebook, so that doesn't help, Rich1 wants to know "if" he has to change the scorebook.

So use the language in the casebook: "becomes a player", and "currently in the game and became a player when he/she legally entered the court", do not differentiate between a live ball and a dead ball.

The key is if he's one of the five players at the time, maybe even during a timeout (not an intermission).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Agree that the "statute of limitations" for these various number (wrong number, illegal number, identical numbers) and scorebook issues can be confusing.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 12:03pm
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Rule 3-2-2 clarification

I do not have any idea how we would ever know that a "team member" was listed incorrectly in the book unless they did report to the table to enter the game but as I read the rule it says that the names and numbers of each team member (defined in 4-34-4 as anyone on the bench in a uniform who is eligible to become a player) must be supplied to the scorer and it sounds as if you could give a T just for having the number listed incorrectly because the roster submitted did not have the team members and their numbers correct. Not saying that's what I think we should do but the rule specifically says "a team is charged with a technical if the scorer is required to change the number in the book or if the team member is required to change his jersey to match the number in the book".

The magic word here would be REQUIRED. If we are interpreting that to mean it is only required to be changed if the team member enters the game (which seems to be supported by the case plays quoted by Bob) then as long as he does not enter the game the T can be avoided.

Using this interpretation player #12 reports to the table and IF the scorer recognizes that he is listed as #10 in the book before he is beckoned then he may return to the bench without penalty. Unless the coach requests the number be changed or has the player change jerseys so that he can enter the game then there is no violation of rule 3-2-1 or 3-2-2.

The only hesitation I have is that this seems to be treating the wrong number the same as an illegal number. An illegal number is penalized if a player participates but "player" and "participates" are not the same as "team member" and "discovered". These seem like separate but equal situations that are administered the same way but the difference in wording between adjudicating a wrong number and an illegal number is a little confusing.

Also, I noticed that rule 3-2-1 does not say that the roster has to be correct (ie. names matching numbers) only that the roster has to be submitted which suggests that there would be no penalty unless the score book has to be changed - no play, no change, no problem. And, if the entire roster had the wrong numbers it would only be 1 tech and any other numbers could be corrected without penalty.
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Last edited by Rich1; Sun Mar 27, 2022 at 12:09pm.
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2022, 12:27pm
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Difference In Wording ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich1 View Post
The only hesitation I have is that this seems to be treating the wrong number the same as an illegal number. An illegal number is penalized if a player participates but "player" and "participates" are not the same as "team member" and "discovered". These seem like separate but equal situations that are administered the same way but the difference in wording between adjudicating a wrong number and an illegal number is a little confusing ...
Changing numbers in the book and illegal numbers (uniform) are both enforced only if the team members are one of the five participants (players). Both are ignored for team members who are not participating (bench personnel) at the time of discovery. The former is charged to the team, the latter is charged directly to the head coach (seatbelted).

Thus they are separate and not fully equal situations that are not administered the same way (team vs. head coach).

Identical numbers are a completely different animal. A technical foul for identical numbers can be charged to any team member (not necessarily a player) at the time of discovery (after the ten minute mark). It's a team foul.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Mar 28, 2022 at 12:19pm.
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