Double T, shoot free throws?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

I disagree on that, based on this paragraph in the section you mentioned:



RESUMPTION OF PLAY—For any technical foul(s), play shall resume at the

point of interruption using the procedures in Rule 7-3.2, including for a

single flagrant 2 technical foul or a single contact dead ball technical foul

(Art. 1.e through .k).

The rule book is wrong. The NCAA put out a correction at the beginning of the season.

Corrections to Rule Book: 1. Pages 96 and 97 under “Resumption of Play”- The book reads, “For any Technical fouls . . .” This is not correct. Replace “including” with “excluding” because after F2 technicals and Contact Dead Ball Technical’s (CDBT’s), play will resume with a throw-in from a spot nearest to where the foul occurred using Rule 7-3.2. Again, on Page 97 under “Resumption of Play”, replace “including” with “excluding”.. “a single F2 technical foul”.

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[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I went back and looked at this on ESPN Plus.

They gave the ball back to the Norfolk State at the division line and called a dead ball technical foul on Coppin State player for the push.

Now the broadcasters said it was a double technical, but you can see and hear the official report the information to the TV people and said it was a dead ball technical and that they were giving the ball to Norfolk State.

So that tells me that this was not a double technical, but two separate acts, which is why you shoot all the free throws. That being said, the ball should have gone to the end line, not the division line.

It took a long time to get to this conclusion as well. Seemed like there was either disagreement or not understanding of what was called. Because one of the officials was going to put the ball in play at the division line before they shot free thows. So they seemed to get to the right conclusion on the free throw, but not the placement of the ball on the throw-in. Both coaches were confused, mostly the Norfolk State coach.

Peace

So, you think they adjudicated it as a false double foul?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

So, you think they adjudicated it as a false double foul?

No. Both were dead ball acts. But a double foul is seen at approximately the same time. If there is a delay or enough of one, they could be two separate acts. That is the only way you shoot the free throws. Also when they put it at the division line, that is kind of a tell it was not a double foul when the acts took place on the end line. Maybe they just screwed it up, but they would have had to make that mistake on several fronts, not just one way.

Peace

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No. Both were dead ball acts. But a double foul is seen at approximately the same time. If there is a delay or enough of one, they could be two separate acts. That is the only way you shoot the free throws. Also when they put it at the division line, that is kind of a tell it was not a double foul when the acts took place on the end line. Maybe they just screwed it up, but they would have had to make that mistake on several fronts, not just one way.

Peace

I said it looks like it was called a "false" double foul, I.e., two separate acts. So, I think we're in agreement with how they administered it. Except, I can't figure out why the ball was inbounded at the division line. And, since neither was flagrant, I can't figure out why they didn't go to POI.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

I said it looks like it was called a "false" double foul, I.e., two separate acts. So, I think we're in agreement with how they administered it. Except, I can't figure out why the ball was inbounded at the division line. And, since neither was flagrant, I can't figure out why they didn't go to POI.

As I've already posted, the rule book is wrong. A bulletin was sent out in regards to CDBT and Flagrant fouls. The throw-in was put in at the division line by mistake, as that used to be the throw-in spot for CDBT.

Bottom-line, if there is a Flagrant technical foul or CDBT technical foul involved, the offended team gets a throw-in at a designated spot. It is not administered as POI.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

I said it looks like it was called a "false" double foul, I.e., two separate acts. So, I think we're in agreement with how they administered it. Except, I can't figure out why the ball was inbounded at the division line. And, since neither was flagrant, I can't figure out why they didn't go to POI.

A false double foul is when one of the fouls is live and the next foul is dead. That did not happen here. It is just two different Ts, that is it.

Also, dead ball contact fouls used to be opposite the table and at the division line. I think the officials just got a little confused there. That again is the only reason I can make out for where the throw-in took place.

Peace

[ilyazhito]

These were 2 different acts with 2 different penalties. Contact dead ball technical fouls do not follow the normal rules of putting the ball in play from the point of interruption. Rather, the offended team receives the ball at one of four spots in the frontcourt per Rule 7-3.2. The officials were following the old rule about ball placement on a contact dead ball technical foul. I get that it might not be discussed in pre-game, because it is an atypical situation, but I would expect NCAA tournament officials to put the ball in at the right spot.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

A false double foul is when one of the fouls is live and the next foul is dead.

While that may be true for college rules, for those high school officials trying to compare/contrast as they follow this thread, JRutledge's definition is not true for a high school false double fouls, where live ball/dead ball may not impact the definition.

A high school false double foul may involve a live ball foul followed by a dead ball foul, or it may involve two dead ball fouls. For example, technical foul on Red player, lets say for taunting, but after reporting, before White shoots the technical foul free throws (clock hasn't started), there is a technical foul charged to White player for profanity. False double (high school) foul, shot in the order that they occurred. Each foul carries its own penalties, for example, if the White profanity technical foul was considered flagrant, in addition for two free throws for Red, the White player would be disqualified. Following all free throws, ball to Red at (high school) division line.

NFHS 4-19-9: A false double foul is a situation in which there are fouls by both teams, the second of which occurs before the clock is started following the first, and such that at least one of the attributes of a double foul is absent.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While that may be true for college rules, for those high school officials trying to compare/contrast as they follow this thread, JRutledge's definition is not true for a high school false double fouls, where live ball/dead ball may not impact the definition.

A high school false double foul may involve a live ball foul followed by a dead ball foul, or it may involve two dead ball fouls. For example, technical foul on Red player, lets say for taunting, while White is shooting the technical foul free throws (clock hasn't started), there is a technical foul charged to White player for profanity. False double (high school) foul, shot in the order that they occurred. Following all free throws, ball to Red at (high school) division line.

NFHS 4-19-9: A false double foul is a situation in which there are fouls by both teams, the second of which occurs before the clock is started following the first, and such that at least one of the attributes of a double foul is absent.

First of all you do not call a false double foul. Those just happen based on the the actions you have ruled. So let us stop saying they called a false double foul, because if you have two different acts they are simply not a POI application as a double foul would be normally. And a dead ball contact technical at the NCAA level has a totally different penalty. Unless you call both plays a dead ball contact technical, then you would not go to POI on those situations.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all you do not call a false double foul. Those just happen based on the the actions you have ruled.

Never stated that a false double foul was "called" (there is no false double foul signal). But like JRutledge stated (paraphrased), it is what it is. If I had to explain the chain of (high school) events to a coach, or to my assigner, I would definitely use the phrase "false double foul", "Coaches, what we have here is a false double foul, so we're going to ... yada, yada, yada". As Casey Stengel said, "You can look it up".

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And a dead ball contact technical at the NCAA level has a totally different penalty. Unless you call both plays a dead ball contact technical, then you would not go to POI on those situations.

Can't argue with that, JRutledge is a college guy, I'm certainly not.

And neither of my high school fouls example involved contact, sorry if I confused anybody.

Let's say that the profanity didn't happen, but was a unilateral dead ball flagrant punch.

Still, by rule, a high school false double foul.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

A false double foul is when one of the fouls is live and the next foul is dead.

Still say that JRutledge's definition of a false double foul (for high school only) is only partially correct, yes, it can be a live ball foul followed by a dead ball foul, but it can be two dead ball fouls (not at the same time) as well.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

These were 2 different acts with 2 different penalties. Contact dead ball technical fouls do not follow the normal rules of putting the ball in play from the point of interruption. Rather, the offended team receives the ball at one of four spots in the frontcourt per Rule 7-3.2. The officials were following the old rule about ball placement on a contact dead ball technical foul. I get that it might not be discussed in pre-game, because it is an atypical situation, but I would expect NCAA tournament officials to put the ball in at the right spot.

The four spots would apply if it were a front court throw-in. If it's a back court throw-in, it goes to a designated spot closest to where the infraction took place.

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[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Never stated that a false double foul was "called". But like JRutledge stated (paraphrased), it is what it is. If I had to explain the chain of (high school) events to a coach, or to my assigner, I would definitely use the phrase "false double foul", "Coaches, what we have here is a false double foul, so we're going to ... yada, yada, yada". As Casey Stengel said, "You can look it up".



Can't argue with that, JRutledge is a college guy, I'm certainly not.

And neither of my high school fouls example involved contact, sorry if I confused anybody.

Let's say that the profanity didn't happen, but was a unilateral dead ball flagrant punch.

Still, by rule, a high school false double foul.



Still say that JRutledge's definition of a false double foul (for high school only) is only partially correct, yes, it can be a live ball foul followed by a dead ball foul, but it can be two dead ball fouls (not at the same time) as well.

It was said by someone else that they called a false double foul. They called a T that then led to dead ball contact foul. Again DBCF has a totally separate penalty, so you cannot just couple that with other Ts that are not related. And if they called a Flagrant foul, they cannot do that as well.

I was not speaking on the behalf of high school not once in this topic. So please stop making this about high school because that has totally different penalties or results.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It was said by someone else that they called a false double foul.

Agree. Coach Bill. Not me.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I was not speaking on the behalf of high school not once in this topic.

Which is why I stated ...

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... for those high school officials trying to compare/contrast as they follow this thread ...

I was just concerned about the definition, not the penalties or results.

So can I assume that the high school definition (just the definition, not the penalty) of a false double foul is much different that NCAA, with NFHS including a combination of dead ball and live ball fouls, as well as dead ball fouls only; while the NCAA definition of a false double foul only includes a live ball foul followed by a dead ball foul?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

A false double foul is when one of the fouls is live and the next foul is dead.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS 4-19-9: A false double foul is a situation in which there are fouls by both teams, the second of which occurs before the clock is started following the first, and such that at least one of the attributes of a double foul is absent.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So can I assume that the high school definition (just the definition, not the penalty) of a false double foul is much different that NCAA,

you can get the NCAA definition on line for free.

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It was said by someone else that they called a false double foul. They called a T that then led to dead ball contact foul. Again DBCF has a totally separate penalty, so you cannot just couple that with other Ts that are not related. And if they called a Flagrant foul, they cannot do that as well.

I was not speaking on the behalf of high school not once in this topic. So please stop making this about high school because that has totally different penalties or results.

Peace

I truly meant to say that it appeared to be administered "like" a false double foul, not that a false double was called. That's my fault for starting this up. Just meant they penalized both and shot free throws, gave offended team of the DBCT, the ball.

"After the last free throw for a false double foul (See Rule 4-15.4), the
ball shall be put in play as if the penalty for the last foul of the false double
foul were the only one administered when the last foul was a single flagrant 2
technical foul or a single contact dead ball technical foul."