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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 12, 2021, 04:22pm
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Avoid Correctable Errors ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
This only seems to be an issue for you ...
And apparently for the NFHS since they have a casebook play that specifically deals with this situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
The rule says that it must be done at the correct basket ...
One rule does. One rule doesn't.

When the time frame of a correctable error has not passed, it is true that the free throws must be attempted at the correct basket, but when the time frame of a correctable error has passed that's not true, the free throws don't have to be attempted at the correct basket, and if points are scored, they count for the shooting team (4-5).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Don't let it happen and then you have nothing to worry about. Shoot at the proper basket.
Agree 100%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Best way to handle correctable errors is to avoid them. Unfortunately, especially in middle school games with no team fouls on the scoreboard, sometimes the scorekeepers (sometimes students) are asleep at the switch. I wish that I got a dollar every time I asked a middle school scorekeeper, "Is it one and one?", or, "How many team fouls now?".
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
This is why all four of my local interpreters over forty years have each told us, on many occasions, to get together with partners before technical foul free throws to make sure that, at minimum, we're shooting at the correct basket. I always think, "Never. No way". But they keep telling us that we often call technical fouls when we're pissed off and maybe a little emotional and that it's easy under those conditions get distracted and to accidentally and carelessly get "turned around". And then being forced to subsequently correct the error can really make us look foolish under the watchful eyes of players, coaches, and fans. "These guys can't even go in the right direction. What a bunch of fools".
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jul 12, 2021 at 04:37pm.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 12, 2021, 04:31pm
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4-5 Nobody Gets Cheated By An Official's Mistake ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
There is not a single sane or sensible person I know who would think to credit points to the opponent if somebody shoots free throws at the wrong basket.
I never seriously thought that, but wondered why it was so important that this be a correctable error since nobody got "cheated" by an official's "mistake".

Not free throws, and not a mistake by the officials, but you haven't officiated very long if you have never observed a confused player attempting to shoot at the "wrong" basket and any points scored count for the "other" team (with all the complications if said player is fouled by an equally confused defender).
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jul 12, 2021 at 05:16pm.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 12, 2021, 04:51pm
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Newbie Sarcasm ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin View Post
Did you find 2.10.4 Situation B insufficient?
Are Forum members with less than fifty posts allowed to be sarcastic?

Maybe someone who travels to games in puddle jumpers has paid his "dues" and is allowed to be what he wants to be?

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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jul 12, 2021 at 05:18pm.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 12, 2021, 05:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
...

Not free throws, and not a mistake by the officials, but you haven't officiated very long if you have never observed a confused player attempting to shoot at the "wrong" basket and any points scored count for the "other" team (with all the complications if said player is fouled by an equally confused defender).
What does that have to do with the subject of shooting free throws at the wrong basket?

I'll answer for you--nothing at all. Nobody has ever been confused enough to think that shooting free throws at the wrong basket will count as points for the opponent, so I don't know why you're posting 20 plus times to yourself on the subject.


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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 12, 2021, 07:01pm
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Wrong Baskets ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
What does that have to do with the subject of shooting free throws at the wrong basket?
Wrong baskets in general, and complications that are sometimes associated with them.

These (not free throws) sometimes confuse some non-officials. I've had middle school coaches and recreation league coaches (often parent coaches) who are flabbergasted that the points count for the other team, believing that the points should just be cancelled for some reason.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jul 12, 2021 at 07:18pm.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 12, 2021, 07:09pm
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No Regrets ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I don't know why you're posting 20 plus times to yourself on the subject.
My multiple posts in this thread resulted in Mike Goodwin's great citation (wrong basket free throws), a citation that nobody else was able to come up with (bob jenkins came close), so I have no guilt about my many posts in this thread. Regarding a slightly different situation earlier in this thread (substitution), my posts sparked Nevadaref to come up with a great citation as well. And by talking myself through it, I was also able to come up with a few good citations myself (8-2 and 4-5). The results speak for themselves. My stubborn persistence paid off.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jul 12, 2021 at 07:40pm.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 12, 2021, 09:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I never seriously thought that, but wondered why it was so important that this be a correctable error since nobody got "cheated" by an official's "mistake".

Not free throws, and not a mistake by the officials, but you haven't officiated very long if you have never observed a confused player attempting to shoot at the "wrong" basket and any points scored count for the "other" team (with all the complications if said player is fouled by an equally confused defender).
No one said it was "so" important except you through your own inferences.

It's just a correctable error to everyone else. The free throws were shot at the wrong basket. It's correctable whether the free throws were missed or made.

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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 12, 2021, 09:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
New correctable error situation #4: Two technical foul free throws successful at the wrong basket. Subsequent live ball, dead ball, and live ball. Error discovered too late, so not correctable.

Everything else is "going the right way".

Is this treated as any other "wrong way" basket, two points counting for the team that "owns" the basket?
If you were really unsure that these two points should have counted for the team that shot the free throws, with as much experience you have, that's an inexcusable lack of knowledge.
...




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Last edited by Raymond; Mon Jul 12, 2021 at 10:28pm.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 12, 2021, 10:41pm
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Interpretation Of Some Type ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
No one said it was "so" important except you through your own inferences.
The NFHS must have thought it important because they listed it as a correctable error, and followed it up with a casebook play for good measure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
If you were really unsure that these two points should have counted for the team that shot the free throws ...
Never, just curious about a reason for a correctable error that really didn't need correcting because nobody was "cheated". Best way to figure this out was through posts about hypothetical situations in this thread. Just wanted something more (like a citation) than common sense to hang a hat on. My stubborn persistence and Devil's advocate attitude paid off.

In the back of my mind I think I knew that there was a interpretation of some type that kept whispering to me to count the free throws for the shooter's team, I just couldn't put my finger on it, and was quite pleased when Mike Goodwin finally posted it.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jul 12, 2021 at 10:59pm.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 12, 2021, 11:42pm
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This was you who asked this question, correct?

"Is this treated as any other "wrong way" basket, two points counting for the team that "owns" the basket?"

So are we supposed to take it now that you are being disingenuous when you ask a question? Your goal is really to be some kind of passive aggressive proxy for other officials who, in your estimation, need guidance?

My most highly successful mentor has a pet peeve. That peeve is people asking questions they obviously already know the answer to just to draw attention to themselves.



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Last edited by Raymond; Mon Jul 12, 2021 at 11:44pm.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 13, 2021, 08:42am
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My Evil Plan ...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
"Is this treated as any other "wrong way" basket, two points counting for the team that "owns" the basket?" So are we supposed to take it now that you are being disingenuous when you ask a question? Your goal is really to be some kind of passive aggressive proxy for other officials who, in your estimation, need guidance? ... people asking questions they obviously already know the answer to just to draw attention to themselves.
2.10.4 SITUATION B: The officials erroneously permit A1 to shoot technical foul free throws at Team B’s basket; A1 makes both free throws. When the error is discovered, the time frame for the correctable error (a) has not passed; or (b) has passed. RULING: In (a), cancel the successful free throws by A1 and administer the free throws again at the correct basket. In (b), the free throws by A1 shall not be canceled and count toward Team A’s point total.

While not a perfect description, Raymond came pretty close.

Until Mike Goodwin posted it, I was unable to specifically pinpoint 2.10.4 SITUATION B, but I was somehow "aware" of the interpretation, possibly through my original training forty years ago, or through my service on my local board's rules training committee several years ago. Or it could have been mentioned by one of local interpreters at one, or more, of our 200 local board meetings over the past forty years. Or maybe at one of the many seminars I've attended. Maybe even here on the Forum.

So that nebulous, "fuzzy" idea (not counting free throws points at the wrong basket for the non-shooting team) was in the back recesses of my mind as I pondered the need for free throws at the wrong basket to be a correctable error. Why correct it if we're never going to count the the points for the "wrong" team? I was conflicted, and confused.

I was 100% certain that a team’s own basket was the one into which its players try to throw the ball, but I was "fuzzy" (but still somewhat "aware") of some type of exception.

My big mistake was looking for guidance solely in the rulebook, and not including the casebook in my research. I was quite pleased when I finally came up with 4-5 (mistake by officials resulting in a team going in the wrong direction), but it still left unanswered my question regarding the need for free throws at the wrong basket to be a correctable error. After finding the 4-5 rule citation, I should have followed up with a deep dive into the casebook, but I didn't.

I'm not proud of this, but I stopped reading the entire casebook annually cover to cover a few years back, now only reading it when I have a specific written rule exam question, or a specific "real game" question.

Luckily Mike Goodwin came to the rescue. His citation of 2.10.4 SITUATION B was the cherry on top of the hot fudge sundae, confirming something that I was already aware of (but was unable to confirm with a citation).

My question, "Is this treated as any other "wrong way" basket ... points counting for the team that "owns" the basket?", was not asked to draw any attention to me, but rather an attempt to confirm, with the help of the Forum, something that I was already aware of. It was for my own education, and possibly the education of others.

Evil plan accomplished.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Jul 13, 2021 at 01:49pm.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 13, 2021, 09:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post


....
My sincere question, "Is this treated as any other "wrong way" basket ... points counting for the team that "owns" the basket?", was not asked to draw any attention to me, but rather an attempt to confirm, with the help of the Forum, something that I was already aware of. It was for my own education, and possibly the education of others.

Evil plan accomplished.
As I've already stated, no one else was unclear about that. And if you were unsure after 40 years of officiating and 15+ years in this forum, that is inexcusable.

Another thing, if you are going debate ad nauseum about a certain rule, you should at least read all the relevant case plays for that rule.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 13, 2021, 09:29am
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Relevant Case Plays ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
As I've already stated, no one else was unclear about that ...
Unclear? Yes. Strong label, but I''ll wear it. But, at least, I was somewhat aware.

And there may be some non-official Forum "viewers" who were not familiar with the rule.

Watch the numbers. We've got a lot of "viewers" out there who don't actively participate in posting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
... if you are going debate ad nauseum about a certain rule, you should at least read all the relevant case plays for that rule.
Agree.

Now that I'm retired from my day job as a chemist, I should really go back to my annual reading of the casebook from cover to cover (it was an annual ritual for me, reading the entire casebook from cover to cover before taking my annual written refresher exam).

Now, when fans yell at me, "Don't quit your day job", I reply, "Too late, I already did".
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Jul 13, 2021 at 10:10am.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 13, 2021, 10:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Unclear? Yes. Strong label, but I''ll wear it. But, at least, I was somewhat aware.

And there may be some non-official Forum "viewers" who were not familiar with the rule.

Watch the numbers. We've got a lot of "viewers" out there who don't actively participate in posting.
..
Not talking about some supposed lurkers. I'm trying to fathom how YOU did not know that those points do not get awarded to the opponent.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 13, 2021, 10:27am
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Confirmed ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
...you did not know that those points do not get awarded to the opponent.
Knew it, but wanted it confirmed with some type of citation (thanks Mike Goodwin).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Won't be doing that in any of my games either, but how about a citation to hang our hats on? Better yet, consider it a written test question.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Jul 13, 2021 at 10:37am.
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