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Old Thu Jul 08, 2021, 12:31pm
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Correctable Error

B1 commits a common foul on A1. A1 is substituted by A6.
a) Team A in-bounds the ball, attempts a shot. Team B rebounds the ball. Team B moves down the court, make a basket. Timer immediately sounds the horn. Informs the official the foul was #7 for Team B. Can we correct the error? If so, what is the procedure?
b) Team A in-bounds the ball, Team B knocks the ball out-of-bounds. Timer immediately sounds the horn. Informs the official the foul was #7 for Team B. Can we correct the error? If so, what is the procedure?
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2021, 12:39pm
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Correctable Error Substitution ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
B1 commits a common foul on A1. A1 is substituted by A6 ...
Thanks for bringing this up Zoochy. I was watching Greg Austin’s You Tube presentation (missed the live presentation) on correctable errors yesterday and had similar questions.

Who shoots the free throw(s)?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 08, 2021 at 01:28pm.
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2021, 12:44pm
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Sit A Tick ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
B1 commits a common foul on A1. A1 is substituted by A6. Team A in-bounds the ball, Team B knocks the ball out-of-bounds. Timer immediately sounds the horn. Informs the official the foul was #7 for Team B.
It's a correctable error (failure to award a merited free throw) that falls within the correctable error time frame (with no change of possession, rebounders for free throw(s)).

Who shoots the free throw(s)?

The substitute A6?

Or A1, who sat the required tick (fraction of a second)?
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 08, 2021 at 01:13pm.
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2021, 12:46pm
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Sit Some Ticks ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
B1 commits a common foul on A1. A1 is substituted by A6. Team A in-bounds the ball, attempts a shot. Team B rebounds the ball. Team B moves down the court, make a basket. Timer immediately sounds the horn. Informs the official the foul was #7 for Team B.
It's a correctable error (failure to award a merited free throw) that falls within the correctable error time frame (with a change of possession, point of interruption after free throw(s), when Team A will subsequently run the end line).

Who shoots the free throw(s)?

The substitute A6?

Or A1, who sat the required ticks?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 08, 2021 at 02:31pm.
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2021, 12:50pm
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Twist And Shout (The Beatles, 1964) ...



New twist, situation #3.

B1 commits a common foul on A1. A1 is substituted by A6. A6 is legally beckoned and enters the court. Official erroneously hands ball to inbounder A3 (ball becomes live). Timer immediately sounds the horn. Informs the official the foul was #7 for Team B.

It's a correctable error (failure to award a merited free throw) that falls within the correctable error time frame (with no change of possession, rebounders for free throw(s)).

Who shoots the free throw(s)?

The substitute A6?

Or A1, who hasn't sat the required tick?

I'm only aware of one exception to the sit a tick rule - playing with five "trumps" the sit a tick rule (see citations below).

Is this another exception?

I doubt it.

8.2 SITUATION B: A1 is fouled and will be shooting two free throws. After A1’s
first free-throw attempt, B6 (Team B’s only remaining eligible substitute) replaces
B2. A1’s second free-throw attempt is unsuccessful. During rebounding action for
A1’s missed second free-throw attempt, and before the clock starts, A1 pushes B3
in the back causing B3 to roll an ankle. Team B is in the bonus. B3 is unable to
immediately continue playing. Team B requests and is granted a time out in order
to allow B3 to recover from the ankle injury so as to remain in the game. B3 is still
not able to play after the time out has ended. RULING: B2 may return to the game
and replace B3 and shoot B3’s free throw attempts despite having been replaced
since he/she is the only available substitute. (3-3-4)

3.1.1 SITUATION: After six players have been disqualified, Team A has only
four who are eligible to continue in the game as players. In a gesture of fair play,
the coach of Team B indicates a desire to withdraw a player so that each team will
have four players on the court. RULING: This is not permissible. Team B must
have five players participating as long as it has that number available.
If no substitute
is available, a team must continue with fewer than five players. When only
one player remains to participate, that team shall forfeit the game unless the referee
believes this team still has an opportunity to win the game.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 08, 2021 at 02:56pm.
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2021, 03:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
B1 commits a common foul on A1. A1 is substituted by A6.
a) Team A in-bounds the ball, attempts a shot. Team B rebounds the ball. Team B moves down the court, make a basket. Timer immediately sounds the horn. Informs the official the foul was #7 for Team B. Can we correct the error? If so, what is the procedure?
b) Team A in-bounds the ball, Team B knocks the ball out-of-bounds. Timer immediately sounds the horn. Informs the official the foul was #7 for Team B. Can we correct the error? If so, what is the procedure?
The rules wording for when an error is correctable is hard for many. I prefer to use this sequence to explain it:
Error...clock properly runs...dead ball...live ball.
If you go through each step and reach the live ball it is too late. Otherwise, it is correctable. This covers multiple live/dead/live transition that may happen before the clock starts, if any. It covers errors that occur with the clock running or the clock stopped.

Both (a) and (b) are correctable as there was no dead ball-live ball transition after the clock was started in either case...the error was discovered during the dead ball before it become live again (which would have made it too late in both cases).

In both cases, bring A1 back in to shoot the FT(s). Even if the clock had not run, you're bringing A1 back in to shoot the FTs. The rule requiring a player to sit-a-tick is not applicable in this situation. A1 shoots A1's FTs unless A1 is injured or disqualified.

In (a), since there had been a change of possession after the error (B rebounded), there will be no players along the lane for A1's 1+1. After the FT(s), resume at the POI...Team A gets the ball on Team B's endline as after any made shot. If Team A still wants to substitute A6 in for A1 after the FTs, they may do so....again, the substitution rules about sitting a tick are not in affect due to the correctable error.

In (b), there had been no change of possession. Line up players for the FT normally and continue play from the last FT as after any normal FT. If A1 makes the FTs, A6 may still come in for A1 after the FTs are completed.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Thu Jul 08, 2021 at 03:51pm.
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2021, 03:21pm
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Agree with Camron.
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2021, 04:02pm
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Citations ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
In both cases, bring A1 back in to shoot the FT(s). Even if the clock had not run, you're bringing A1 back in to shoot the FTs. The rule requiring a player to sit-a-tick is not applicable in this situation. A1 shoots A1's FTs unless A1 is injured or disqualified ... the substitution rules about sitting a tick are not in affect due to the correctable error.
While not disagreeing with Camron Rust, are there citations other than 2-3 (Referee's Authority), and Purpose and Intent, to support his interpretation?

3-3-4: A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall
not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been
started properly following his/her replacement.


My additional new twist situation #3 is the only one in the thread that doesn't have A1 sitting the required tick.

There are two casebook plays that support the one exception to the sit a tick rule that I am aware of - playing with five "trumps" the sit a tick rule.

Do we now have a second exception to the sit a tick rule?

2-3 (Referee's Authority) and Purpose and Intent are pretty good citations, but are there more?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 08, 2021 at 04:26pm.
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2021, 04:18pm
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Designated Shooter ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
... bring A1 back in to shoot the FT(s) ... you're bringing A1 back in to shoot the FTs ... A1 shoots A1's FTs unless A1 is injured or disqualified.
My additional new twist situation #3 is the only one in the thread that doesn't have A1 sitting the required tick.

Since two of the three situations have A1 sitting the required tick, let's move away from the "sit a tick" question in those two situations and discuss whether the substitute A6 is some type of "designated shooter" who, for some reason, has to shoot the free throws (except for for blood, disqualification, or injury).

While not disagreeing with Camron Rust, are there citations other than 2-3 (Referee's Authority), and Purpose and Intent, to support his interpretation?

2-3 (Referee's Authority) and Purpose and Intent are pretty good citations, but are there more?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 08, 2021 at 04:41pm.
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2021, 04:36pm
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Down To Basics ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The rules wording for when an error is correctable is hard for many. I prefer to use this sequence to explain it ...
While Camron Rust's explanation of a correctable error is great, I'm not sure that Zoochy's question was in regard to whether, or not, is was correctable, and how to move the game along, but rather, who shoots the free throw(s).

1) Is substitute A6 some type of "designated shooter", who is only allowed to be substituted for for blood, disqualification, or injury?

2) Does the sit a tick rule apply in the one situation (new twist situation #3) where A1 has not sat his required tick?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 08, 2021 at 04:39pm.
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2021, 04:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
B1 commits a common foul on A1. A1 is substituted by A6.
a) Team A in-bounds the ball, attempts a shot. Team B rebounds the ball. Team B moves down the court, make a basket. Timer immediately sounds the horn. Informs the official the foul was #7 for Team B. Can we correct the error? If so, what is the procedure?
b) Team A in-bounds the ball, Team B knocks the ball out-of-bounds. Timer immediately sounds the horn. Informs the official the foul was #7 for Team B. Can we correct the error? If so, what is the procedure?
a) Yes you can correct the error. You are correcting after the first dead ball after the error. It can be corrected at this time.

You would shoot the FTs with no one on the lane, but you had a chance of possession so you give the ball back to the Team A that had the ball

b) This cannot be corrected because this is during the second live ball after the mistake.

Inform the table it is too late and give the ball back to Team A.

There is a part of me doubting Situation A only because of something that happened to me a couple of years ago. But I think this is right based on the rule as I know it.

Peace
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2021, 04:50pm
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Eureka! Eureka! (Socrates, Third Century B.C) …

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
1) Is substitute A6 some type of "designated shooter", who is only allowed to be substituted for for blood, disqualification, or injury?

2) Does the sit a tick rule apply in the one situation (new twist situation #3) where A1 has not sat his required tick?
8-2: The free throw(s) awarded because of a personal foul must be attempted by the offended player. If such player must withdraw because of an injury or disqualification, his/her substitute must attempt the throw(s) unless no substitute is available, in which case any teammate may attempt the throw(s) as selected by the team captain or head coach.

No injury. No disqualification.

This citation may take care of both the "sit a tick" and the "designated shooter" questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
There are two casebook plays that support the one exception to the sit a tick rule that I am aware of - playing with five "trumps" the sit a tick rule. Do we now have a second exception to the sit a tick rule?
Yes, I now believe that we do.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 08, 2021 at 05:58pm.
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2021, 04:57pm
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No Second Live Ball ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
B1 commits a common foul on A1. A1 is substituted by A6. Team A in-bounds the ball, Team B knocks the ball out-of-bounds. Timer immediately sounds the horn. Informs the official the foul was #7 for Team B.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
This cannot be corrected because this is during the second live ball after the mistake.
Disagree.

Common foul is point in the game that the dead ball (first dead ball) error occurs.

(Note: I believe that all correctable errors occur during dead balls.)

Ball become live (first live ball) when at disposal of Team A inbounder.

Clock runs (for a split second) when Team B deflects the live ball.

Ball out of bounds is a dead ball (second dead ball).

Timer immediately sounds the horn. Informs the official the foul was #7 for Team B.

Error is correctable because there was never a second live ball.



Note: With no change of possession, rebounders for free throw(s).
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 08, 2021 at 05:28pm.
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2021, 05:07pm
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If I recall, a basket was made. The error took place and then we had a live ball. We had the first dead ball after the basket was made. Then when the ball was put at the disposal of the thrower, that is a live ball and the clock ticked because of the out of bounds violation. That made it too late. If the basket was not made, then I would agree.

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Old Thu Jul 08, 2021, 05:14pm
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Different Situation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
If I recall, a basket was made.
That was Situation A.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
B1 commits a common foul on A1. A1 is substituted by A6. Team A in-bounds the ball, attempts a shot. Team B rebounds the ball. Team B moves down the court, make a basket. Timer immediately sounds the horn. Informs the official the foul was #7 for Team B.
Common foul is point in the game that the dead ball (first dead ball) error occurs.

(Note: I believe that all correctable errors occur during dead balls.)

Ball become live (first live ball) when at disposal of Team A inbounder.

Ball remains live (and clock runs) when Team A in-bounds the ball, when Team A attempts a shot (that misses), when Team B rebounds the ball, and when Team B moves down the court (no dead balls in this sequence, ball is live the entire sequence).

Team B making a basket is the next dead ball (second dead ball).

Timer immediately sounds the horn. Informs the official the foul was #7 for Team B.

Error is correctable because there was never a second live ball.



Note: With a change of possession, point of interruption after free throw(s), when Team A will subsequently run the end line.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 08, 2021 at 07:07pm.
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