The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 15, 2015, 02:33pm
In Time Out
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 794
Shot clock error- correctable error?

Ok, let's just assume the ball didn't hit the rim which it may have. On a play like this, the shot clock is improperly reset. Player scores. So a ref can waive it off. But then let's say it isn't and the ball is inbounded. Coach is screaming, ref realize they made a mistake. Can they stop play and correct the shot clock mistake, waive off the basket?




http://www.modbee.com/sports/high-sc...e14152574.html
There was a volatile moment in the third quarter – one that kept Monte Vista coach Nick Jones yelling at the officials 15 minutes after the final horn.

With the Mustangs leading 29-26 after a 9-2 run in the third quarter, they appeared to have the Crusaders stopped on offense when an airball against a dwindling shot clock turned into a scrum under the MC basket.

The shot clock should have expired, but the hometown clock operator reset it and the officials missed the reset.

Robinson Idehen grabbed the loose ball and scored, and Jones was hit with a technical. Wu hit both free throws for a 30-29 lead, and MC had dodged the Monte Vista run.

“Our guys battled, and I felt the refs took the game out of their hands,” Jones said. “I thought we got jobbed, yes. Everybody in the gym knew there was a shot clock violation except the three refs, and for me to get the technical when they blew the call was not right.”

Read more here: http://www.modbee.com/sports/high-sc...#storylink=cpy

Read more here: http://www.modbee.com/sports/high-sc...#storylink=cpy
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 15, 2015, 02:54pm
Stubborn Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,466
Quote:
Originally Posted by mutantducky View Post
...and for me to get the technical when they blew the call was not right.”
No, coach. A mistake by an official does not give you the right to act like an a-hole, and therefore deserve a technical foul.

Here's a lesson for younger officials... just because you make a mistake, it doesn't make it okay for a coach to act out. I may give him more rope to rant, but my mistake is not his "get out of jail free" card.

As for how to handle the shot clock, I wish I could say. We don't have one in Ohio, so I have no experience with it and couldn't say. Seems to me that one of the official's on the court should have known, and therefore whistled the play dead. But I don't know the rule.

BTW, a mistake made in the book or by the scorer's table can be fixed if an official has definite knowledge that an error was made. I would guess that, in this case, the mistake could be rectified if an official can say for sure that the shot clock would have reached zero.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 15, 2015, 04:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,574
Quote:
Originally Posted by mutantducky View Post
Ok, let's just assume the ball didn't hit the rim which it may have. On a play like this, the shot clock is improperly reset. Player scores. So a ref can waive it off. But then let's say it isn't and the ball is inbounded. Coach is screaming, ref realize they made a mistake. Can they stop play and correct the shot clock mistake, waive off the basket?
I need more information, and this is a HTBT kind of play. Because they didn't blow the ball dead as soon as they realized a shot clock expiration should have taken place, I can only assume they were either completely unaware of the shot clock status, or they judged the ball may have grazed the rim, hence permitting the reset.

If I'm 100% sure the ball missed the rim and I know for sure the put back wouldn't have been in time, then I blow it dead, call the SC violation, and we move on.

If for some reason I choke, but then we get together within the correctable error timeframe and confirm this was an error, than this is a failure to properly cancel a score and the error can be corrected. Then ball at POI and we play on.

I find this article to be very slanted toward the aggrieved team and coach, so I'm not putting too much stock into it. The officials probably saw it differently from 10 feet away than the coach did from 50 feet away. He deserved his T.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 15, 2015, 04:49pm
In Time Out
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 794
That's what I'm not sure about. So something like a brain freeze, the shot is an airball, refs don't hear the horn because it accidentally resets and they think there is time left. Player scorers, ball is inbound. Then refs realize, it should have counted. Crosscountry- I guess we both think the refs can blow it dead here but I'm not sure.

look at the quote here, it makes the coach sound different. Maybe he cooled down a bit after.

http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article...le-6133789.php

“Hats off to Modesto Christian — truly a great team and coach,” Jones said. “Our kids battled. We were right there. Unfortunately, that sequence was really key. That was a 38- or 39-second possession. They got it wrong and compounded it with a technical I don’t think I deserved. … I don’t want to sound like sour grapes. It was just unfortunate.”
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 15, 2015, 05:50pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
No, coach. A mistake by an official does not give you the right to act like an a-hole, and therefore deserve a technical foul.

Here's a lesson for younger officials... just because you make a mistake, it doesn't make it okay for a coach to act out. I may give him more rope to rant, but my mistake is not his "get out of jail free" card.

As for how to handle the shot clock, I wish I could say. We don't have one in Ohio, so I have no experience with it and couldn't say. Seems to me that one of the official's on the court should have known, and therefore whistled the play dead. But I don't know the rule.

BTW, a mistake made in the book or by the scorer's table can be fixed if an official has definite knowledge that an error was made. I would guess that, in this case, the mistake could be rectified if an official can say for sure that the shot clock would have reached zero.
I may give a little more rope, if I know a mistake was made and can't be fixed.

1. It's not a guarantee.
2. It's only a little more rope. Very little. He still needs to act like an adult.
3. The key is that I have to know a mistake was made or think it's at least likely.
4. See #2.

Without video, I can't say whether the T was deserved, but I've seen enough of these situations where the coach thinks a bad call was made and thinks he can act like a bad-boy 80's male tennis player.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 15, 2015, 07:25pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,574
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Without video, I can't say whether the T was deserved, but I've seen enough of these situations where the coach thinks a bad call was made and thinks he can act like a bad-boy 80's male tennis player.
I'll take, "Breaks my wooden racket on grass turf" for $600, Alex.

The forum doesn't have a tennis page, does it?
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 15, 2015, 11:28pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,712
Tough situation for the crew. If the try truly did not strike the ring, then this is a mistake by the shot clock operator.
The CIF uses a 35 second shot clock for boys basketball. The rules for its use are published in a CIF rules modification document. I'll consult that and then post again, but my current thought is that this is a timing error, not a correctable error, so if the crew doesn't catch it before the goal is scored, it cannot be fixed.

My analogous situation for those who work HS ball without a shot clock would be the game clock timer failing to start the clock with 3.5 seconds left in a quarter and a team scores. If none of the officials used definite knowledge to blow the play dead before the goal, it has to count and the game continues with the ensuing throw-in by the opponent after any adjustment of the clock by the referee. If no one had any count, then 3.5 stays on the clock.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 16, 2015, 09:47am
#thereferee99
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 624
California Case Play

Here is the only part of CIF shot clock document that is helpful:
- Shot-clock operator mistake: A1 shoots with three seconds on shot clock—ball misses ring/flange, A2 gets rebound. Shot-clock operator mistakenly resets clock on A2’s possession. Team A runs offense for 10 seconds. Timer has official stop play and informs her/him that a mistake was made by resetting the shot clock.
Answer: Call shot-clock violation—ball goes to Team B at end line. If official has actual knowledge, time can be corrected on game clock (add minimum of 10 seconds to game clock).
__________________
-- #thereferee99
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 16, 2015, 10:29am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,191
Gee, I can't wait until the rest of the country gets to use the shot clock.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 16, 2015, 10:48am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Mid-Hudson valley, New York
Posts: 751
Send a message via AIM to Lotto
Quote:
Originally Posted by mutantducky View Post
Ok, let's just assume the ball didn't hit the rim which it may have. On a play like this, the shot clock is improperly reset. Player scores. So a ref can waive it off. But then let's say it isn't and the ball is inbounded. Coach is screaming, ref realize they made a mistake. Can they stop play and correct the shot clock mistake, waive off the basket?
Here's an NCAA case book play that suggests that the officials can waive the basket:

A.R. 121. The time on the game clock is 15:30 and the shot clock reads 0:25. A1 shoots the ball with five seconds on the shot clock and the ball does not hit the ring or flange. Team A recovers the ball and the shot-clock operator, by mistake, resets the shot clock. No one notices the mistake by the shot-clock operator at this time. The game clock gets to 15:00 and B2 commits a foul against A2. Now the officials get together and realize the shot-clock operator’s mistake.

RULING: When the officials have definite information relative to the shot-clock operator’s mistake, it is permissible to rectify that mistake. In this case, since the officials have definite information relative to the time involved, they shall put five seconds back on the game clock, cancel the foul and award the ball to Team B at a designated spot nearest to where the ball became dead for the shot-clock violation.

And here's the rule it's based on (5-12.4):
Art. 4. When an obvious mistake by the shot-clock operator has occurred in failing to start, stop, set or reset the shot clock or when a shot clock has malfunctioned, the mistake or the malfunctioning problem may be corrected in the shot-clock period in which it occurred only when the official has definite information relative to the mistake or malfunctioning problem and the time involved. When a timing mistake or malfunctioning problem occurs that gives a team more time than that team is entitled to, any activity after the mistake or malfunctioning problem has been committed and until it has been rectified shall be canceled, excluding any flagrant foul or technical foul.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 16, 2015, 11:25am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,712
"When a timing mistake or malfunctioning problem occurs that gives a team more time than that team is entitled to, any activity after the mistake or malfunctioning problem has been committed and until it has been rectified shall be canceled, excluding any flagrant foul or technical foul."

The problem is that this part of the rule does not exist in the CIF modifications. Therefore, I don't believe that the officials can reach this same conclusion in a CA HS contest.

Link to the CIF modifications: http://psirefs.com/files/CIF_Basketb...Mods_10_09.pdf

Last edited by Nevadaref; Mon Mar 16, 2015 at 12:56pm.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 16, 2015, 11:35am
In Time Out
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 794
A.R. 121
good rule. I hope CIF will look at something like that. Seems simple enough to adapt. (ha) but really they should use it.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shot Clock Error c'mon mendy Basketball 19 Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:23pm
(Un)Correctable Error & Shot Clock Use ? bd41flpk Basketball 26 Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:11am
Reset shot clock before FT on correctable error? Lotto Basketball 32 Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:03pm
Correctable error 1and 1 foul shot dknick78 Basketball 4 Fri Jan 21, 2005 01:27pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:36pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1