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Old Sun Mar 28, 2021, 01:56pm
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Creighton-Gonzaga backcourt play

4:10 left in first half. Gonzaga defender tips ball off Creighton foot and into the backcourt. Creighton recovers, official gives tip signal, play on.

Is it fair to assume that in NCAAM, a defensive tip effectively eliminates the last/first principle that prevails in HS?

Last edited by ODog; Sun Mar 28, 2021 at 02:03pm.
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Old Sun Mar 28, 2021, 01:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ODog View Post
4:10 left in first half. Gonzaga player tips ball off Creighton foot and into the backcourt. Creighton recovers, official gives tip signal, play on.

Is it fair to assume that in NCAAM, a defensive tip effectively eliminates the last/first principle that prevails in HS?
No - they missed it.
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Old Sun Mar 28, 2021, 02:12pm
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NCAA And NFHS Backcourt Differences ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ODog View Post
Gonzaga defender tips ball off Creighton foot and into the backcourt. Creighton recovers, official gives tip signal, play on. Is it fair to assume that in NCAAM, a defensive tip effectively eliminates the last/first principle that prevails in HS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 View Post
No - they missed it.
While tjones1 may be correct, and while I know more about quantum physics than I know about NCAA rules, I believe that there is a difference in the NFHS and NCAA backcourt rule (something involving tips), I'm just not sure if the difference applies here.

JRutledge may have some relevant input here, I remember him discussing the differences here on the Forum in great detail a while back.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 28, 2021 at 02:16pm.
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Old Sun Mar 28, 2021, 02:35pm
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I believe a difference is the ball being deflected A1 jumps and controls the ball then lands in the backcourt - no violation per NCAAM.

That's not what happened here.
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Old Sun Mar 28, 2021, 02:53pm
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NCAA-M changed the rule a couple years ago. If there is a defensive touch then the offense can be the first to touch the ball in the backcourt even if they are the last to touch in the frontcourt. As described in the OP, a no-call is correct.
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Old Sun Mar 28, 2021, 02:53pm
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As described, I believe they got the rule correct:

From the NCAA rule book:

Art. 5. A pass or any other loose ball (including when a player in control of the
ball loses control of the ball when a defensive player bats or deflects it out of his
control) in the front court that is deflected by a defensive player, which causes
the ball to go into the backcourt may be recovered by either team even if the
offense was the last to touch the ball before it went into the backcourt.
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Old Sun Mar 28, 2021, 03:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 View Post
No - they missed it.
I suggest that you brush up on your NCAAM’s rules.
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Old Sun Mar 28, 2021, 03:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I suggest that you brush up on your NCAAM’s rules.
Good idea - haven't looked at them in 5+ years (no need to) and don't see that changing.

Don't agree with the change, but oh well... good to know.
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Old Sun Mar 28, 2021, 03:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I suggest that you brush up on your NCAAM’s rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 View Post
Good idea - haven't looked at them in 5+ years (no need to) and don't see that changing.
In my forty years of officiating basketball, I've worked, one, and only one NCAA game, a women's junior college game assigned by my local high school assigner.

While I don't pay real close attention to NCAA rules, I don't ignore them completely either, especially when discussed here on the Forum.

Three reasons for me to be, at least, aware of NFHS/NCAA rule differences.

1) Prep school teams here in Connecticut use an odd hybrid version of NFHS/NCAA rules (shot clock, and a few other differences).

2) Being aware of NFHS/NCAA rule differences can help in a debate with a confused and bewildered high school coach (and maybe a partner) that doesn't know NFHS/NCAA rule differences.

3) And finally, being aware of NFHS/NCAA rule differences increases the chances of me winning bar bets on basketball rules at my local gin joint.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Mar 30, 2021 at 10:31am.
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Old Sun Mar 28, 2021, 03:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 View Post
I believe a difference is the ball being deflected A1 jumps and controls the ball then lands in the backcourt - no violation per NCAAM.



That's not what happened here.
That is a BC violation. He is securing with FC status, then taking the ball to the BC. Players can only do that on a throw-in or jump ball, or when a defensive player steals a pass.

The play described in the OP is not a violation.

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Last edited by Raymond; Sun Mar 28, 2021 at 04:01pm.
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Old Sun Mar 28, 2021, 04:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
In my forty years of officiating basketball, I've worked, one, and only one NCAA game, a women's junior college game assigned by my local high school assigner.

While I don't pay real close attention to NCAA rules, I don't ignore them completely either, especially when discussed here on the Forum. Three reasons for me to be, at least, aware of NFHS/NCAA rule differences. Prep school teams here in Connecticut use an odd hybrid version of NFHS/NCAA rules (shot clock, and a few other differences). Being aware of NFHS/NCAA rule differences can help in a debate with a confused and bewildered high school coach that doesn't know NFHS/NCAA rule differences. And finally, being aware of NFHS/NCAA rule differences increases the chances of me winning bar bets on basketball rules at my local gin joint.

For those who don’t officiate at the NCAA level, I would think that the best reason to be aware of recent NCAA rule changes is that the NFHS often follows suit. So watching a few tourney games on tv can provide one a preview of what is possibly coming to the HS level. My opinion is that the NFHS will adopt this defensive deflection change to the backcourt rule.
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Old Sun Mar 28, 2021, 04:58pm
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The Trickle Down Theory ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
For those who don’t officiate at the NCAA level, I would think that the best reason to be aware of recent NCAA rule changes is that the NFHS often follows suit.
Good point, but I prefer to wait until the NCAA rule officially trickles down to the NFHS.

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Old Sun Mar 28, 2021, 07:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
That is a BC violation. He is securing with FC status, then taking the ball to the BC. Players can only do that on a throw-in or jump ball, or when a defensive player steals a pass.

The play described in the OP is not a violation.

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Did they revise this memo?

February 20, 2019
Play 1 - Team A has possession of the ball in its front court when B1 deflects a pass in the direction
of the backcourt. A1 jumps in the air, controls the loose ball and then lands in the backcourt.
RULING - This is not a backcourt violation even though A1 touched the ball before it had gained
backcourt status. Legal play. Rules 9-12.5, 9-12.3.a and 9-12.4.
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Old Sun Mar 28, 2021, 07:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
For those who don’t officiate at the NCAA level, I would think that the best reason to be aware of recent NCAA rule changes is that the NFHS often follows suit. So watching a few tourney games on tv can provide one a preview of what is possibly coming to the HS level. My opinion is that the NFHS will adopt this defensive deflection change to the backcourt rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Good point, but I prefer to wait until the NCAA rule officially trickles down to the NFHS.
I think the best reason to know the NCAA rule on this specifically, is the fact that coaches and players often think the NF Rule is the same as what they see on TV. I treat these like football rules, "Coach that is the NCAA rule (or Saturday rule), not the rule at our level."

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Old Sun Mar 28, 2021, 07:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 View Post
Did they revise this memo?

February 20, 2019
Play 1 - Team A has possession of the ball in its front court when B1 deflects a pass in the direction
of the backcourt. A1 jumps in the air, controls the loose ball and then lands in the backcourt.
RULING - This is not a backcourt violation even though A1 touched the ball before it had gained
backcourt status. Legal play. Rules 9-12.5, 9-12.3.a and 9-12.4.
Yes,, you are correct. AR241 covers this play.

Wish they would update the rule wording to match the case play.

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Last edited by Raymond; Mon Mar 29, 2021 at 09:48am.
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