The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2021, 09:22am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,360
High School Resumption Of Play ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
... putting the ball on the floor when the offense is slow getting a thrower FED going to finally get with the times and allow more delay warnings for situations such as this rather than giving us only the option of the ROP procedure?
SC Official's recent thread was mostly about college rules and I didn't want to muck up his thread with a high school question so here's my separate thread.

After reading SC Official's thread, I decided to do some deep "dumpster diving" into the rulebook and casebook to get my mind clear regarding high school resumption of play procedures because I haven't given it much thought lately.

Regarding free throws, it is my belief that there are two different ways to address the situation of a player (shooter) not making one's self available for a free throw (in the semicircle).

If the free throw is after a timeout or intermission, we use the resumption of play procedure (ball on the floor, yada, yada, yada ...).

But if the free throw isn't after a timeout or intermission, and the player (shooter) does not make one's self available for a free throw, it's an immediate delay of game player technical foul (no (ball on the floor, no yada, yada, yada ...).

Now let's move on to a player not making one's self available for a throwin.

If the throwin is after a timeout or intermission, we use the resumption of play procedure (ball on the floor, yada, yada, yada ...).

If the delayed throwin is not after a timeout or intermission, do we still use the resumption of play procedure (ball on the floor, yada, yada, yada ...)?

4-38: The resumption-of-play procedure is used to prevent delay in putting the ball in play when a throw-in team does not make a thrower available or following a time-out or intermission (unless either team is not on the court to start the second half) as in 7-5-1 and 8-1-2. The procedure results in a violation instead of a technical foul for initial delay in specific situations.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 11, 2021 at 09:25am.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2021, 09:27am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
If the delayed throwin is not after a timeout or intermission, do we still use the resumption of play procedure (ball on the floor, yada, yada, yada ...)?

4-38: The resumption-of-play procedure is used to prevent delay in putting the ball in play when a throw-in team does not make a thrower available or following a time-out or intermission (unless either team is not on the court to start the second half) as in 7-5-1 and 8-1-2. The procedure results in a violation instead of a technical foul for initial delay in specific situations.
Yes.

The "or" in 4-38 is very important.

FED, in all its genius, does not allow a delay warning for teams being slow getting out of a timeout, or for repeatedly being slow getting a thrower-in during normal action.

(And, my thread was not intended to be NCAA-specific. I have no problem if the mods merge.)
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2021, 10:51am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post

Now let's move on to a player not making one's self available for a throwin.

If the throwin is after a timeout or intermission, we use the resumption of play procedure (ball on the floor, yada, yada, yada ...).

If the delayed throwin is not after a timeout or intermission, do we still use the resumption of play procedure (ball on the floor, yada, yada, yada ...)?

While the ACTION is the same, it's not the "ROP procedure."
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2021, 10:59am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,360
Resumption-Of-Play Procedure ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
While the ACTION is the same, it's not the "ROP procedure."
Why not?

4-38: The resumption-of-play procedure is used to prevent delay in putting the ball in play when a throw-in team does not make a thrower available OR following a time-out or intermission (unless either team is not on the court to start the second half) as in 7-5-1 and 8-1-2. The procedure results in a violation instead of a technical foul for initial delay in specific situations.

Isn't the red highlighted above an example of an independent clause, a group of words that contains both a subject and a predicate that expresses a complete thought and can stand alone as a sentence.

(My high school English teacher, Mr. Baumgartner, would be so proud if me.)
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 11, 2021 at 11:08am.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2021, 01:18pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: SLC Utah
Posts: 559
What is the violation?

Team doesn't want to come get the ball what violation do you call? DOG, turnover, what?
__________________
BigT "The rookie"
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2021, 02:19pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,360
Put In Play Or Placed On The Floor ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
What is the violation? Team doesn't want to come get the ball what violation do you call?
There is no violation. Here's what a high school official is supposed to do:

4-38: The resumption-of-play procedure is used to prevent delay in putting the ball in play when a throw-in team does not make a thrower available ... The procedure results in a violation instead of a technical foul for initial delay in specific situations.

7-5-1: When a team does not make a thrower available ... the resumption-of-play procedure is used to prevent delay. The administering official will sound the whistle to indicate play will resume. In each situation:
a. The ball must be put in play if Team A is ready or it must be placed on the floor.
b. The throw-in count must begin and if a violation occurs, the procedure will be repeated for Team B.
c. Following a violation by one team only, if that team continues to delay when authorized to make a throw-in, it is a technical foul.
d. Following a violation by both teams, any further delay by either team is a technical foul.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 11, 2021 at 02:54pm.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2021, 02:29pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,360
Let The Party Begin ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post

4-38: The resumption-of-play procedure is used to prevent delay in putting the ball in play when a throw-in team does not make a thrower available ... The procedure results in a violation instead of a technical foul for initial delay in specific situations.

7-5-1: When a team does not make a thrower available ... the resumption-of-play procedure is used to prevent delay. The administering official will sound the whistle to indicate play will resume. In each situation:
a. The ball must be put in play if Team A is ready or it must be placed on the floor.
b. The throw-in count must begin and if a violation occurs, the procedure will be repeated for Team B.
c. Following a violation by one team only, if that team continues to delay when authorized to make a throw-in, it is a technical foul.
d. Following a violation by both teams, any further delay by either team is a technical foul.
What if the throwin team is ready to go but the opposing (defending) team isn't ready?

I believe that, after loudly sounding our whistle, we give the ball to the thrower, and let the party begin.

I think that 7-5-1 could be worded better, not only regarding the use of the throwin resumption-of-play procedure at all times (not just after a timeout or intermission), but also regarding the throwin team being ready to go but the opposing team not be ready.

It states: When a throw-in team does not make a thrower available ... It doesn't say what to do if the defending team doesn't make defenders available.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 11, 2021 at 04:11pm.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2021, 03:23pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,360
Not Being Available To Rebound ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... deep "dumpster diving" into the rulebook and casebook to get my mind clear regarding high school resumption of play procedures because I haven't given it much thought lately. Regarding free throws, it is my belief that there are two different ways to address the situation of a player (shooter) not making one's self available for a free throw (in the semicircle) ...
Let's change it up to the non-shooting team players not being available (after a timeout or intermission), not refusing (like the casebook play), just not being available because they're still dilly-dallying in their team huddles.

What happens next? Give the ball to the shooter and give a delayed violation signal? Then what happens (make or miss)? Team technical foul?

2018-19 Casebook Revisions 8.1.4b SITUATION B: A1 is fouled and is at the free-throw line. Team B refuses to occupy the first marked lane spaces. RULING: A technical foul shall be charged to Team B for unsporting conduct. The lane shall be cleared and A1 shall be given the warranted free throws. Team A’s coach will then designate who will shoot the free throws for the technical foul. The technical foul free throws will be shot. The ball will then be administered at the division line to Team A. (10-4-5)
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 11, 2021 at 03:30pm.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2021, 06:26pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Let's change it up to the non-shooting team players not being available (after a timeout or intermission), not refusing (like the casebook play), just not being available because they're still dilly-dallying in their team huddles.

What happens next? Give the ball to the shooter and give a delayed violation signal? Then what happens (make or miss)? Team technical foul?

2018-19 Casebook Revisions 8.1.4b SITUATION B: A1 is fouled and is at the free-throw line. Team B refuses to occupy the first marked lane spaces. RULING: A technical foul shall be charged to Team B for unsporting conduct. The lane shall be cleared and A1 shall be given the warranted free throws. Team As coach will then designate who will shoot the free throws for the technical foul. The technical foul free throws will be shot. The ball will then be administered at the division line to Team A. (10-4-5)
See 10.2.1A

And, you are correct on the "or" wording in ROP -- I don't have my old books anymore to see if that's an addition or if I misread it for 25 years.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2021, 07:59pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,360
Always Listen To bob ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
See 10.2.1A.
Nice citation. Thanks bob jenkins.

10.2.1 SITUATION A: A1 is fouled by B1 during an unsuccessful try and is awarded two free throws. Team B requests and is granted a charged 60-second time-out. Team B disregards the 15-second warning signal and the signal ending the time-out and is still huddling with their coach at the end of the charged time-out. RULING: The official shall administer the first free throw using the resumption-of-play procedure and a violation occurs if it is missed. If two B players are not in the required position when the official is ready to put the ball in play for the substitute throw, a delay of game technical foul will be assessed. If the first attempt is good, the same procedure is used for the second. (9-1-2; 10-1-5b)
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2021, 08:32pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,360
Nothing Happens ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
10.2.1 SITUATION A: A1 is fouled by B1 during an unsuccessful try and is awarded two free throws. Team B requests and is granted a charged 60-second time-out. Team B disregards the 15-second warning signal and the signal ending the time-out and is still huddling with their coach at the end of the charged time-out. RULING: The official shall administer the first free throw using the resumption-of-play procedure and a violation occurs if it is missed. If two B players are not in the required position when the official is ready to put the ball in play for the substitute throw, a delay of game technical foul will be assessed. If the first attempt is good, the same procedure is used for the second. (9-1-2; 10-1-5b)
Does this mean that if all the free throws (one, one and one, two, or three) are good, that "nothing" happens (other than a possible five second violation on the subsequent throwin)?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 11, 2021 at 08:52pm.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 12, 2021, 07:58am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Does this mean that if all the free throws (one, one and one, two, or three) are good, that "nothing" happens (other than a possible five second violation on the subsequent throwin)?
The T is for delaying the game. If all the FTs are made, has the game been delayed?
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 12, 2021, 09:35am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,360
Seventh Heaven ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
The T is for delaying the game. If all the FTs are made, has the game been delayed?
No. And officials like it when free throws go in, by either team, no rebounding fouls. Imagine how easy it could be to officiate a game where every free throw or field goal try attempt goes in. We would all get home in time to watch the beginning of Murder, She Wrote.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Loose Ball play High School frankdatank Basketball 5 Tue Nov 24, 2015 01:11pm
Unusual high school play jmdjr9866 Basketball 2 Wed Feb 04, 2015 06:43am
High school fake to 3rd play upprdeck Baseball 59 Sat May 04, 2013 03:18pm
Interesting high school play SC Ump Softball 18 Fri May 16, 2003 06:42am
over time play in high school football left-field Football 4 Wed Sep 06, 2000 11:18pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:51am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1