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Old Mon Apr 22, 2013, 10:36am
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High school fake to 3rd play

runners on first and third. right hand pitcher steps towards 3rd, fakes the throw, turns and throws towards first, and throws it out of bounds.. How many bases does the runner on first get.

does it mean he has stepped off the rubber so its a two base error? does he have to step back off the rubber for that to be a two base error?

the Umps ruled it one base, and said there is no appeal possible on the play. If it was a two base error that would seem to be a rule interpretation and appeal-able?

it felt like it should be a two base error .
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Old Mon Apr 22, 2013, 10:42am
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Depends on what the pitcher did. If he broke contact with the rubber on the fake to third, then it's a two base award. If he didn't then it's a one base award. 99% of the time it's the former.

Note that in NCAA, the pitcher had to break contact, or it would have been a balk to throw to first.

(And, in OBR, the fake itself to third is a balk.)
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Old Mon Apr 22, 2013, 10:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upprdeck View Post
runners on first and third. right hand pitcher steps towards 3rd, fakes the throw, turns and throws towards first, and throws it out of bounds.. How many bases does the runner on first get.

does it mean he has stepped off the rubber so its a two base error? does he have to step back off the rubber for that to be a two base error?

the Umps ruled it one base, and said there is no appeal possible on the play. If it was a two base error that would seem to be a rule interpretation and appeal-able?

it felt like it should be a two base error .
In order to performe the 1st to 3rd move properly, F1 must disengage the rubber before throwing to 1st. Therefore, you fall back on the "1 from the rubber, 2 from the field" rule and the award for a successful 1st to 3rd move with an overthrow would be 2 bases TOT.
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Old Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:18am
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Thats how we felt at the time that he had to disengage to throw to first.. It was also kind of confusing when the opposing coach argued its only one base because the runner was not half way to 2nd when the ball went out of bounds..

My thought on that was maybe some Kick ball rule?
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Old Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:23am
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Originally Posted by ozzy6900 View Post
In order to performe the 1st to 3rd move properly, F1 must disengage the rubber before throwing to 1st. Therefore, you fall back on the "1 from the rubber, 2 from the field" rule and the award for a successful 1st to 3rd move with an overthrow would be 2 bases TOT.
That's NOT true under FED rules, Ozzy.

I recognize that the OP said "HS" and not "FED".
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Old Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy6900 View Post
In order to performe the 1st to 3rd move properly, F1 must disengage the rubber before throwing to 1st. Therefore, you fall back on the "1 from the rubber, 2 from the field" rule and the award for a successful 1st to 3rd move with an overthrow would be 2 bases TOT.
In FED F1 does not have to disengage before throwing to 1B. But if he doesn't disengage he has to throw. As Bob says, 99% of the time there is a disengage. I've never seen the other 1 percent.
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Old Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:58am
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can someone explain how someone can fake to 3rd and throw to first without disengaging? In my case i was trying to describe the pitcher stepped to 3rd with his left ft, followed thru and his right foot came off ending up parallel with his left, he then turned and threw to first.

could he fake a throw to 3rd without stepping with an arm fake and then reverse and throw to first? if so he doesnt need to step back off the rubber?

or is there some other way to fake the throw and not disengage?
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Old Mon Apr 22, 2013, 12:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upprdeck View Post
can someone explain how someone can fake to 3rd and throw to first without disengaging? In my case i was trying to describe the pitcher stepped to 3rd with his left ft, followed thru and his right foot came off ending up parallel with his left, he then turned and threw to first.

could he fake a throw to 3rd without stepping with an arm fake and then reverse and throw to first? if so he doesnt need to step back off the rubber?

or is there some other way to fake the throw and not disengage?
A feint requires a step, but doesn't require arm motion.

You can feint without coming off the rubber. Go ahead -- try it in your living room / den / office. Step ahead then stop, and pivot back the other way.
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Old Mon Apr 22, 2013, 12:13pm
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Originally Posted by upprdeck View Post
can someone explain how someone can fake to 3rd and throw to first without disengaging?
Imagine a VERY VERY small step toward third without committing one's balance in that direction. Then immediately pushing off the free foot back toward first and literally spinning to throw.

Like has been said here a bunch ... I've never seed it live. I've seen it in training videos, and each one looks like the pitcher is uncomfortable and in pain trying to execute this move we never ever really see to illustrate a rule we never ever need to use.
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Old Mon Apr 22, 2013, 12:34pm
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Originally Posted by upprdeck View Post
the Umps ruled it one base, and said there is no appeal possible on the play. If it was a two base error that would seem to be a rule interpretation and appeal-able?

it felt like it should be a two base error .
Maybe he wouldn't let you appeal, (question the interpretation of the rule), for the same reason he got the call wrong. He didn't know the rule.
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Old Mon Apr 22, 2013, 04:37pm
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The term "disengage" is really a misnomer. There is no physical way a pitcher can fake or make pick offs without physically disengaging the rubber. For the purposes of ruling on over throws out of play, we consider a pick off 'from the rubber' if the pitcher doesn't actually step backwards off the rubber, no? Any pick off where the pitcher stays in front of the rubber can be considered, 'from the rubber', at least for the purposes of pick-offs to first.
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Old Mon Apr 22, 2013, 04:45pm
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Originally Posted by RPatrino View Post
The term "disengage" is really a misnomer. There is no physical way a pitcher can fake or make pick offs without physically disengaging the rubber. For the purposes of ruling on over throws out of play, we consider a pick off 'from the rubber' if the pitcher doesn't actually step backwards off the rubber, no? Any pick off where the pitcher stays in front of the rubber can be considered, 'from the rubber', at least for the purposes of pick-offs to first.
Not really, on the move in question, or really on any move where you start to throw toward 2nd or 3rd and don't actually throw... it doesn't matter which direction you "disengage" to (in fact, when failing to throw to third, you usually disengage toward third ... and definitely not "backward off the rubber") - you have disengaged. Normally - who cares... but should the throw back to first go out of play, it does matter.
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Old Mon Apr 22, 2013, 04:48pm
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Of course it matters, and that was my point. On the fake 3rd to 1st move, with the ball thrown out of play, you will award 1 base? Or 2?

On a straight pick off move, righty to first who steps back off the rubber and throws out of play, 1 or 2 bases?
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Old Mon Apr 22, 2013, 05:01pm
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Originally Posted by RPatrino View Post
Of course it matters, and that was my point. On the fake 3rd to 1st move, with the ball thrown out of play, you will award 1 base? Or 2?
Um ... depends on if they disengage. What exactly are you saying?

Sounded like you were saying that unless you step back first, you're not disengaging. That's what I was disagreeing with. This move can be done by disengaging TOWARD THIRD (your foot comes off) ... and in fact almost every time, it does. If you don't then throw to 1st, no balk. If you do and it goes out of play - 2 bases.

This move can also be done without disengaging - keeping your foot on the rubber. (I said earlier we don't really see this, other than on video ... but it's possible) If you don't step off the rubber - and then don't throw to first it's a balk ... and if the ball goes out of play, 1 base.
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Old Mon Apr 22, 2013, 07:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPatrino View Post
On a straight pick off move, righty to first who steps back off the rubber and throws out of play, 1 or 2 bases?
Two bases.
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