Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Will Love This ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

6-3-8 NOTE states that if the jumpers fail to touch the ball on the initial toss, they will be ordered to jump and touch the ball on the re-toss. This implies that the same jumpers will have to jump if the jump ball is repeated.

Great citation ilyazhito. Is this the Holy Grail we've been seeking?

6-3-8 Note: During a jump ball, a jumper is not required to face his/her own
basket, provided he/she is in the proper half of the center restraining circle.
The jumper is also not required to jump and attempt to touch the tossed
ball. However, if neither jumper touches the ball it should be tossed again
with both jumpers being ordered to jump and try to touch the ball.

This citation seems to forbid a replacement, or a substitute jumper (unless said jumper is bleeding, injured, or disqualified) in Situation 1 and Situation 2 (below).

Situation 1: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that starter A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

Situation 2: Similar to Situation 1 to begin the game, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for jumper A1. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

Discussion?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

6-3-8 Note: During a jump ball, a jumper is not required to face his/her own basket, provided he/she is in the proper half of the center restraining circle.The jumper is also not required to jump and attempt to touch the tossed ball. However, if neither jumper touches the ball it should be tossed again with both jumpers being ordered to jump and try to touch the ball.

I don't believe that 6-3-8 Note applies to the four situations below.

Situation 5A: During the jump ball between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, A1 and B1 both simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds. No substitutes report to the X in front of the table. Of the ten starters on the court, who is allowed to jump in the “re-jump”?

Situation 5B: Similar to Situation 5A to begin the game (jumpers simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds) but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for jumper A1. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

Situation 6A: Following the jump ball between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the tapped ball is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and then the ball goes out of bounds. On the “re-jump” between new “designated jumpers” A2 and B2, jumpers A2 and B2 simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds. No substitutes report to the X in front of the table. Of the ten starters on the court, who is allowed to jump in the “re-re-jump”?

Situation 6B: Similar to Situation 6A to begin the game, but before the re-re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for A2. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A2 is not injured nor is A2 bleeding.

Based on this thread, I'm probably allowing a substitute or a replacement in Situations 5A, 5B, 6A. and 6B.

But does this (below) have any general implications in Situations 5A, 5B, 6A. and 6B (above)?

6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (b) is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and it then goes out of bounds; In (b) A2 and B2 will jump in the center restraining circle regardless of where the ball went out or where the held ball occurred.(4-12-1; 4-28-1)

Originally Posted by Raymond

There are designated jumpers in the rulebook only in situations where two players cause a held ball prior to possession being established for the purposes of setting the AP arrow.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I just realized that Raymond took two very specific casebook situations and came up with a pretty good general statement that should cover other situations. (However, one of those two specific casebook situations (nonjumpers simultaneous touch out of bounds) is technically not a held ball. Maybe Raymond can re-word his statement.)

Discussion?

[LRZ]

You are going to forbid something based on a debatable, tortured inference? Where not specifically prohibited by the rules?

The 6-3-8 note does not say "the same jumpers." "Both jumpers" can refer to the two players who enter the center circle for the second attempt--ie, replacements like A2.

Holy Grail? Hardly.

If the rules are not clear, and if it doesn't matter if a floor player replaces a jumper, why would we prohibit the replacement on the re-jump? Isn't that OOO?

I've already posted too often on this thread, so I will now retire to the sidelines, and let BillyMac and ilyazhaito continue this discussion.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by LRZ

Holy Grail? Hardly.

Originally Posted by LRZ

The 6-3-8 note does not say "the same jumpers." "Both jumpers" can refer to the two players who enter the center circle for the second attempt--ie, replacements like A2 ...

How about a substitute (not a replacement), as in Situation 2 (since there doesn't appear to be a "designated jumper" as 3-3-2 states, 3-3-2 may only refer to 6.4.1 SITUATION C)?

Another great point by LRZ. His hits just keep on coming (reminds me of listening to AM radio on the beach in the summer as a teenager).

Originally Posted by LRZ

I will now retire to the sidelines ...

And a banner with your username will be hoisted up into the rafters. And maybe a promotion to Esteemed Forum Member? Not too shabby for a guy with less than a thousand Forum posts.

[BillyMac]

6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (b) is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and it then goes out of bounds; (c) is simultaneously controlled by A2 and B2; In (b) and (c), A2 and B2 will jump in the center restraining circle regardless of where the ball went out or where the held ball occurred.(4-12-1; 4-28-1)

So, after over sixty posts in this thread, are we all agreed that these two specific situations (above) are the only two specific situations where the rules designate jumpers, who cannot be replaced, or substituted for (unless injured, bleeding, disqualified)?

And that in all other possible jump ball situations, jumpers may be replaced (a player already on the floor), or substituted for (eligible substitutes, i.e., sit a tick, where appropriate, i.e., overtime jump ball).

[BillyMac]

It just dawned on me what old timers like Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. and Nevaderef are referring to when they talked about pre-1985, pre-alternating possession arrow, ancient times, and why these situations may be confusing for some of us, and controversial for others.

Let's take a close look at a very simple jump ball situation: During the jump ball between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, A1 and B1 both simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds.

Pre-1985, pre-alternating possession arrow, this is how we would have handled it. Jumpers A1 and B1 would be "designated" (no replacement or substitute allowed) to re-jump in the closest of three jump ball circles.

This would be handled as any other situation where the ball simultaneously went out of bounds off of any two players (even in non-jump situations). The two players who simultaneously touched a ball that went out of bounds would be "designated" (no replacement or substitute allowed) to jump in the closest of three jump ball circles.

Back then, not every jump ball situation resulted in "designated jumpers" (i.e., ball lodged between flange and backboard), but many did, including some of the situations that we've been discussing in this thread.

Now post-1985, post-alternating possession arrow, we use the alternating possession arrow instead of real jump balls in situations where there would have been real jump balls previously to the 1985 alternating possession arrow, except jump balls to start the game, or the overtime(s).

In 1985 when the NFHS Rules Committee adopted the alternating possession arrow for all (previous) jump ball or held‐ball situations except the start of the game and each extra period, they appear to have failed to change all the language to fully cover all situations that could possibly lead to a pre-1985, pre-alternating possession arrow, real jump ball (many with "designated jumpers").

Did the NFHS intentionally leave out many "designated jumper" situations, thus allowing replacement or substitute jumpers, or was it a mistake?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Did the NFHS intentionally leave out many "designated jumper" situations, thus allowing replacement or substitute jumpers, or was it a mistake?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

6-3-8 Note: During a jump ball, a jumper is not required to face his/her own
basket, provided he/she is in the proper half of the center restraining circle.
The jumper is also not required to jump and attempt to touch the tossed
ball. However, if neither jumper touches the ball it should be tossed again
with both jumpers being ordered to jump and try to touch the ball.

Originally Posted by LRZ

"Both jumpers" can refer to the two players who enter the center circle for the second attempt ...

Yes it certainly can, but does it?

Because it can also refer to the previous jumpers, but does it?



I don't blame myself, or anybody else, for being confused, or wrong, regarding these situations and interpretations.

I blame the stupid NFHS.

To the NFHS: