Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Will Love This ...

[Nevadaref]

Allow the substitutions in all three scenarios.
The language in the jump ball rule of a designated jumper is left over from prior to the AP arrow becoming part of the game. There is now only one situation in which a player is a designated jumper. You mentioned it in your earlier post—following a jump ball, two players create a held ball prior to player control being gained and the possession arrow being established. Under NFHS rules, those two players must now participate in a jump ball. Note: the NCAA recently changed its ruling on this to allow any two jumpers to conduct such a jump ball.

I’ll also note that your substitution scenarios are no different from a technical foul occurring after the release of the tossed ball, but prior to it being touched. Yep, I’ve actually had this happen in a HS game. So the ball has become live and then dead, yet no time has come off the clock. Subs are certainly permitted at this time. In my situation, we even attempted 2FTs with 8:00 still showing on the clock. Subs could happen before, between, or after those FTs.
Care to guess what occurred to cause the technical foul at that point in the game?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Allow the substitutions in all three scenarios.
The language in the jump ball rule of a designated jumper is left over from prior to the AP arrow becoming part of the game ...

Nice to see that I'm not the only Forum member uncomfortable with the word "designated" in the rule: The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper.

"Designated" by whom? The coach? The rule? The official?

I'm not quite ready, like Nevadaref, to allow a substitution (or a switched jumper) in the first two situations, but I can probably be easily convinced.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Nice to see that I'm not the only Forum member uncomfortable with the word "designated" in the rule: The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper.

"Designated" by whom? The coach? The rule? The official?

I'm not quite ready, like Nevadaref, to allow a substitution (or switched as the jumper) in the first two situations, but I can probably be easily convinced.

My answer would be the officials or the rules. Remember this rule predates the AP arrow, so it covered situations in which two opposing players caused a held ball at some point in the game and a jump ball restart was necessitated. The two players involved in the held ball would be designated to jump. The restriction on substitution was put in to prevent a team from subbing out such a player who was short for a tall player from the bench.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My answer would be the officials or the rules. Remember this rule predates the AP arrow, so it covered situations in which two opposing players caused a held ball at some point in the game and a jump ball restart was necessitated. The two players involved in the held ball would be designated to jump. The restriction on substitution was put in to prevent a team from subbing out such a player who was short for a tall player from the bench.

Agree (good explanation for the reasoning behind the rule), but the "designated"" wording is still in the rulebook.

3-3-2: The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper or a free thrower except as in 8-2 and 3. If the substitute enters to replace a player who must jump or attempt a free throw, he/she shall withdraw until the next opportunity to substitute.

Is "must" really "must" in my first two situations?

[BillyMac]

I'm surprised that Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. hasn't chimed in, this thread contains two of his favorite topics, jump balls (nobody loves jump balls more than Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.), and playing with five trumping sitting a tick (Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s favorite casebook play).



Young'uns can look it up on the Google.

[LRZ]

(1) A2 is not an "entering substitute," so 3-3-2 does not apply. Allow the switch or replacement on a non-jumping player for the designated jumper; this is not a substitution for two reasons: A2 is not a substitute, nor is she entering (she was already in the game). "A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court." 4-34-3.
(2) Do not allow the substitution. 3-3-2.
(3) Allow the substitution of a non-jumper for another non-jumper.

"Designated jumper" is not defined anywhere in the rule or case books, nor do the rules state that a "designated jumper" cannot be replaced by a player already on the floor; the prohibition in 3-3-2 only bars a substitute for the "designated jumper."

I don't say this is always true, but here, the adage "If it's not illegal, it's legal" seems appropriate.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by LRZ

(1) A2 is not an "entering substitute," so 3-3-2 does not apply ... this is not a substitution for two reasons: A2 is not a substitute, nor is she entering (she was already in the game). "A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court." 4-34-3.

Great point LRZ.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by LRZ

"Designated jumper" is not defined anywhere in the rule or case books, nor do the rules state that a "designated jumper" cannot be replaced by a player already on the floor ...

While it's true that "designated jumper" isn't defined, sometimes it's implied.

6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (b) is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and it then goes out of bounds; (c) is simultaneously controlled by A2 and B2; In (b) and (c), A2 and B2 will jump in the center restraining circle regardless of where the ball went out or where the held ball occurred.(4-12-1; 4-28-1)

It may even be implied in my first situation.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

1) Situation: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that player A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by LRZ

A2 is not an "entering substitute," so 3-3-2 does not apply. Allow the switch or replacement on a non-jumping player for the designated jumper; this is not a substitution for two reasons: A2 is not a substitute, nor is she entering (she was already in the game). "A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court." 4-34-3. "Designated jumper" is not defined anywhere in the rule or case books, nor do the rules state that a "designated jumper" cannot be replaced by a player already on the floor; the prohibition in 3-3-2 only bars a substitute for the "designated jumper"...

This (below) is the only reference that I can find regarding "designated jumper". While it's not defined, it's implied that such a "thing" exists (especially when one views the casebook play 6.4.1 SITUATION C), and LRZ is correct that this specific implication only seems to apply to a substitution situation, not to the players already on the court.

3-3-2:The substitute shall remain outside the boundary until an
official beckons, whereupon he/she shall enter immediately. If the ball is
about to become live, the beckoning signal should be withheld. The
entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper or a free thrower
except as in 8-2 and 3. If the substitute enters to replace a player who must
jump or attempt a free throw, he/she shall withdraw until the next
opportunity to substitute.

The casebook play tells us that "designated jumper" applies to a tapped ball being touched simultaneously by nonjumpers A2 and B2 and then going out of bounds, or the tapped ball being simultaneously controlled by nonjumpers A2 and B2.

The casebook play doesn't tell us what to do if the jumpers simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds, but most of us would probably rejump with the same jumpers (are they "designated jumpers"?).

It also doesn't tell us that "designated jumper" applies to a rejump as in my first situation where the tossed ball hits the floor untouched.

Shouldn't "designated jumper" also apply to my first situation?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

1) Situation: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that player A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... a technical foul occurring after the release of the tossed ball, but prior to it being touched ... So the ball has become live and then dead, yet no time has come off the clock. Subs are certainly permitted at this time. In my situation, we even attempted 2FTs with 8:00 still showing on the clock. Subs could happen before, between, or after those FTs.

Agree that substitutes can come in at these times, but since it's the start of the game, nobody has to sit a tick because nobody came out of the game, and tried to renter.

3-3-4: A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall
not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been
started properly following his/her replacement.

If your technical foul after the toss situation happened during the jump ball to start an overtime period (as mentioned by Altor), then the "sit a tick" rule may apply.

Or does, the free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute trump the "sit a tick" rule for such an overtime jump ball technical free throw?

For example, the best free throw shooter on team was a player on the court at the end of regulation, but didn't start the overtime period and was not on the floor for the overtime jump ball when the technical foul occurred before the clock started? Does the team's best free throw shooter, who is on the bench, have to sit a tick to attempt the technical foul free throws?

8-3: The free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by
any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute or
designated starter. The coach or captain shall designate the free thrower(s).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree that substitutes can come in at these times, but since it's the start of the game, nobody has to sit a tick because nobody came out of the game, and tried to renter.

3-3-4: A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall
not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been
started properly following his/her replacement.

If your technical foul after the toss situation happened during the jump ball to start an overtime period (as mentioned by Altor), then the "sit a tick" rule may apply.

Or does, the free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute trump the "sit a tick" rule for such an overtime jump ball technical free throw?

The sit a tick rule applies. The team member who exited the game at the end of regulation is simply not an eligible substitute at this time.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The sit a tick rule applies. The team member who exited the game at the end of regulation is simply not an eligible substitute at this time.

Agree.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Care to guess what occurred to cause the technical foul at that point in the game?

Head coach using an e-cigarette tobacco product?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Care to guess what occurred to cause the technical foul at that point in the game?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Head coach using an e-cigarette tobacco product?

C'mon Nevadaref. How long are you going to keep us hanging?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

C'mon Nevadaref. How long are you going to keep us hanging?

Senior Night: the team had six Seniors and the coach elected to start all six of them and take the team technical foul once the ball became live.