Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Will Love This ...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMace

Originally Posted by BillyMac
1) Situation: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that player A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

2) Similar situation to begin the game, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for jumper A1. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

By the way, in the heat of the game, I'm not allowing the Team A coach to make either of these substitutions/replacements.

Now, if I were taking a written exam on these two situations, I'm still leaning the same way based on the ancient concept of "designated jumper", but I can be convinced otherwise.

I have not seen a citation or reference that tells me I can't allow subs in those situations.

[ilyazhito]

A1 is a jumper by virtue of having participated in the initial jump ball. Because it did not legally end, he still remains a jumper. A jumper or a free thrower cannot be substituted for unless he is injured, ill, or disqualified. A6 cannot enter the game to substitute for A1, because the jump ball has not ended. If the jump ball had been legally or illegally ended, i.e. because of a jump ball violation or one jumper tipping the ball straight out of bounds, then the substitution of A6 for A1 would be legal. A2 cannot replace A1 because the jump ball must be attempted again. According to Rule 6-4-3-NOTE, "When the alternating-possession procedure has not been established, the jump ball shall be in the center restraining circle between the two players involved in the subsequent action." The subsequent action was A1 and B1 failing to touch the tossed ball, so they must, by rule, be the two players involved in the second jump ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

According to Rule 6-4-3-NOTE, "When the alternating-possession procedure has not been established, the jump ball shall be in the center restraining circle between the two players involved in the subsequent action." The subsequent action was A1 and B1 failing to touch the tossed ball, so they must, by rule, be the two players involved in the second jump ball.

Interesting citation ilyazhito. It may bring something new to the table. I may be the citation that I was (unsuccessfully) looking for.

[LRZ]

In 6-4-3 (which deals with alternating possession, not jump balls), there is a toss, a touch by at least one jumper, and a subsequent action. Not so in situation 1. Let's say A1 and B1 are the jumpers, but A2 and B2 simultaneously touch the ball going out of bounds (the subsequent action). The note says A2 and B2 would jump.

But situation 1 involves a different set of facts. R tosses the ball, neither jumper touches it, and it falls to the floor. What is the "subsequent"--"following"--action? There is none, so this note language does not apply. "The subsequent action was A1 and B1 failing to touch the tossed ball, so they must, by rule, be the two players involved in the second jump ball." This is a distorted, erroneous reading of the word "subsequent."

"Because it [the jump ball] did not legally end, he [A1] still remains a jumper."
"A2 cannot replace A1 because the jump ball must be attempted again."

We've already established that 3-3-2 does not prohibit the switch. What rule or case says that another player already on the floor cannot replace--not sub for, but replace--the original jumper? Citation, please?

As for who or what does the designating, the rule and case books are silent on this. In truth, no one designates the jumpers; they "self-designate." The horn sounds, ten players come onto the floor, two enter the center circle, the R tosses the ball, and away we go.

If you are going to bar something, you need a relevant rule or case, or a less-convoluted (and more germane) analysis. Arcane, out-of-context readings are pedantry, and can result in OOO.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by LRZ

"subsequent."

Caused me to take pause as well.

[BillyMac]

Or, if you prefer, Wrong Way Riegels.

Originally Posted by LRZ

The horn sounds, ten players come onto the floor, two enter the center circle, the R tosses the ball, and away we go.

What? You don't tell all the players to hold their spots?

I actually have a prejump routine that only an official with obsessive compulsive disorder could appreciate.

I point to the bench to my left, then point to the jumper to my left, both times stating the color of their jerseys, and then point the opposite (right) way and state, "That way".

I follow that by pointing to the bench to my right, then point to the jumper to my right, both times stating the color of their jerseys, and then point the opposite (left) way and state, "That way".

Ever since they changed the basket/bench rule, I've never started the wrong way because of me. Of course this doesn't work for overtime.

Young'uns can look for Wrong Way Corrigan and Wrong Way Riegels on the Google.

[ilyazhito]

I don't tell anyone to hold their spots. I just bounce the ball, blow the whistle, and point in each direction to indicate where each team is going. If I see non-jumpers encroaching onto the circle, I remind them to stay off the circle. Otherwise, I just toss the ball after a random interval of time, and off we go.

If the rules say the jumper can't be substituted for except for a few enumerated exceptions, and none of those exceptions happen, he can't be substituted for, period. If a free thrower can't be replaced, and jumpers and free throwers are treated equivalently by the rules, at least when it comes to substitution, it then stands to reason that the jumper can't be changed unless there is a new jump ball situation, something prevents him from participating (injury, illness, or disqualifications), or the jump ball situation ends some other way (e.g. technical foul).

[LRZ]

You are conflating "substituting" and "replacing" and then adding in "changing." They are not interchangeable. Also see post #21 on why 3-3-2 does not apply to a jumper switch with a player already in the game.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

If I see non-jumpers encroaching onto the circle, I remind them to stay off the circle ...

... until the ball is tossed after which they can move onto the circle into an unoccupied space, even if it's before the tossed ball is touched by the jumper. Yada yada yada.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Coaches bemoan inconsistency in officials tossing the ball, and unevenly governed rules about the movement of players during the jump ball, and some officials are weary of policing these microbursts of mayhem.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by LRZ

The horn sounds, ten players come onto the floor, two enter the center circle, the R tosses the ball, and away we go.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What? You don't tell all the players to hold their spots?

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I don't tell anyone to hold their spots.

It was a rhetorical question.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game

Calvin Coolidge once said, "The things I did not say never hurt me." Of course, he was not talking about basketball, but many officials would be smart to heed his sage advice as they communicate with coaches, and players.

Good communication skills are important tools to have on any official’s tool belt. Good communication with a partner, with a player, or with a coach, can go a long way to maintaining control of the game, having good game management, and having a smooth game. Sometimes this communication takes place in oral form, talking to players, or coaches, in some cases to explain a ruling, or in other cases to prevent a violation, or a foul. However, probably for reasons of tradition, there have been things that officials often, or sometimes, say during a game that do not have any basis in the rules, and should probably not be said in a game. This article will cover some of those “best left unsaid” statements.

"Hold your spots", said by the referee, or tosser, before the jump ball, is only rule based for some of the players. One exception to this rule, and there are others, is that players on the jump ball circle can move off the jump ball circle at any time: before the toss, during the toss, or after the toss.

Finally, a thought by Will Rogers, “Never miss a good chance to shut up.”

[ilyazhito]

Realistically, I won't be able to monitor them coming onto the circle, as that is the U1's job. My reminder is so that they don't crowd the circle before the toss. What they do after the ball is tossed is their business. The U1 (and U2, if it is a 3-person game, and the players are coming from his area) should be able to deal with players illegally encroaching on the plane of the center circle.
6-3-8 NOTE states that if the jumpers fail to touch the ball on the initial toss, they will be ordered to jump and touch the ball on the re-toss. This implies that the same jumpers will have to jump if the jump ball is repeated.
To reduce confusion, I recommend that the state rules interpreters come up with consistent answers for these questions, and I further move that answers to these questions be incorporated into future editions of the NFHS casebook.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I have not seen a citation or reference that tells me I can't allow subs in those situations.

I agree, which is why I asked about these situations to begin with. I believe that the NFHS dropped the ball back in 1985 and didn't do a perfect job, taking into consideration all possible situations, of changing the game from one with many jump balls to a game with one (or a few) jump balls, especially by diluting the meaning of "designated jumper".