Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Will Love This ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Do not make stuff up. There is only one place and situation in the rulebook where it states 2 specific players must jump.

You are certainly correct (actually two situations, nonjumpers simultaneous touch out of bounds, nonjumpers simultaneous possession).

New Situation 4: The jumpers simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds.

No rule.

No casebook play.

Do we allow any starters on the court to rejump?

Do we allow any substitutes to rejump?

For an overtime jump, do we allow a substitute (who sat out a tick at the end of the fourth period) to rejump?

[Raymond]

Okay, to make it simple. There are designated jumpers in the rulebook only in situations where two players cause a held ball prior to possession being established for the purposes of setting the AP arrow.

Coaches sending players to the center circle for overtime or the beginning of the game does not fall into the above category.

Now apply that logic to your scenarios.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

There are designated jumpers in the rulebook only in situations where two players cause a held ball prior to possession being established for the purposes of setting the AP arrow. Coaches sending players to the center circle for overtime or the beginning of the game does not fall into the above category. Now apply that logic to your scenarios.

And great logic it is.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There isn’t one. MTD’s case play ruling is incorrect. Sad that Mary Struckhoff was convinced by it. The team should comply with the substitution rule and temporarily play with four as an older case play ruling states to do when a player has an asthma attack.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sorry Nevadaref, I should have know that this situation "yanks your chain".

But as President Trump stated a few weeks ago, "It is what it is".

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1037607

And Nevadaref still gets the extra credit.

I) 2002-03 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 5:

A) The Rules Reference R3-S3-A5 is a typographical error.

1) It is my humble opinion that the correct Rules Reference is R3-S3-A4 and R3-S3-A6.

a) R3-S3-A6 (from the 2002-03 NFHS Rules Book): "A player who has been injured to the extent that the coach or any other bench personnel is beckoned and/or comes onto the court shall be directed to leave the game, unless a time-out is requested by, and granted to, his/her team
and the situation can be corrected by the end of the time-out."

i) The word "shall" in the first sentence was changed to "must" in the 2019-20 NFHS Rules Book.

2) Furthermore, a third Rules Reference should have been included in SITUATION 5:

a) R3-S1-A1: "Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain. NOTE: A Team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five. When there is only one player participating for a team, the team shall forfeit the game unless the referee believes that [the] team has an opportunity to win the game."

B) While Situation 5 was published in the Pre-Season Rules Interpretations and was never subsequently added to the Casebook it still remains in effect as would any other published Casebook Play would be (even it is subsequently removed from the Casebook) until a Rule change is adopted that would necessitate a change in the RULING.

C) Based upon the three Rules References that I have provided the RULING in Situation 5 is correct.


II) NFHS Casebook Play 8.2 Situation B (CB Play 8.2B):

A) There is one striking difference between 2002-03 NFHS Rules Interpretations SITUATIOIN 5 and CB Play 8.2B.

1) Team A, in SITUATION 5, had no Substitutes to replace A1 (I assigned the Player with asthma the number A1).

2) Team B, in CB Play 8.2B, had a Substitute as Bench Personnel.

B) When writing the RULING for CB Play 8.2B, I only referenced R2-S3 and R3-S3-A4, but upon reflection I should also have included R3-S1-A1 and R3-S3-A6. But I digress for the moment.

C) We had two opposing Rules that applied to CB Play 8.2B.

1) R3-S1-A1 specifically states that a Team consists of five Players. And must continue to play with less than five Players when it has no substitutes to replace an injured Player.

2) R3-S3-A4 says that B2, "under normal conditions" cannot return to the game until the first opportunity to substitute AFTER the Game Clock has started. But CB Play 8.2B is not a "normal condition".

D) The debate raged around the following question: Which Rule governed: R3-S1-A1 or R3-S3-A4?

1) Was B2 an:

a) eligible Substitute per R3-S1-A1? or

b) ineligible eligible Substitute per R3-S3-A4?

2) There were those (NevadaRef for one) who took the position that R3-S3-A4 governed and it was too bad if Team B had to play with only four players until B2 became an eligible Substitute per R3-S3-A4.

3) I took the position that R3-S1-A1 governed for the following three reasons in order of importance:

a) R3-S1-A1's requirement for five Players to be in the Game when there are five eligible Players, not withstanding R3-S3-A4, is absolute. R3-S3-A4 was written I doubt that the NBC Rules Committee meant to have a Team to be put at a disadvantage because of an injured Play, especially in II-D-3-b below.

b) Illegal contact by A1 caused B2 to become injured and could not remain in the Game.

i) Team B should not be put a disadvantage of playing short-handed against Team A because Team A's infraction of the Rules caused Team B to be short-handed.

c) R2-S3: Sometimes known as "The God Clause". Which must take into account both R3-S1-A1 and R3-S3-A4.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I’m interested to hear your reasoning.
I believe that 1&3 are simple as the substitution restriction does not apply. However, situation 3 is unclear. Is there a designated jumper to start the game or any extra period? If so, is this the same jump ball or a new one?

Nevada:

I mis-read Billy's Original Post. I went back and corrected my RULINGS.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Okay, to make it simple. There are designated jumpers in the rulebook only in situations where two players cause a held ball prior to possession being established for the purposes of setting the AP arrow.

Coaches sending players to the center circle for overtime or the beginning of the game does not fall into the above category.

Now apply that logic to your scenarios.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

That is a nice sentiment, but is it your personal opinion or can you back that up with an NFHS ruling?
If you notice, I asked earlier in this thread if there is a designated jumper to start the game or any extra period. I couldn’t find a clear answer in the rules book.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That is a nice sentiment, but is it your personal opinion or can you back that up with an NFHS ruling? If you notice, I asked earlier in this thread if there is a designated jumper to start the game or any extra period. I couldn’t find a clear answer in the rules book.

While I respect Raymond's knowledgeable opinion, like Nevaderef, I'm also not as certain as Raymond seems to be regarding these rejump situations and replacements/substitutes.

Of course, as basketball officials we often hang our hat on if it's not illegal, it's legal, usually with pretty valid interpretations.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

There are designated jumpers in the rulebook only in situations where two players cause a held ball prior to possession being established for the purposes of setting the AP arrow.

I just realized that Raymond took two very specific casebook situations and came up with a pretty good general statement that should cover other situations.

(However, one of those two specific casebook situations (nonjumpers simultaneous touch out of bounds) is technically not a held ball. Maybe Raymond can re-word his statement.)

New Situation 5: During the jump ball between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, A1 and B1 both simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds. No substitutes report to the X in front of the table. Of the ten starters on the court, who is allowed to jump in the “re-jump”?

By Raymond's general casebook based rule, only A1 and B1 can "re-jump".

New Situation 6: Following the jump ball between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the tapped ball is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and then the ball goes out of bounds. On the “re-jump” between new “designated jumpers” A2 and B2, jumpers A2 and B2 simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds. No substitutes report to the X in front of the table. Of the ten starters on the court, who is allowed to jump in the “re-re-jump”?

By Raymond's general casebook based rule, only A2 and B2 can "re-jump".

I realize that Situation 6 is an extremely rare situation that may occur only once in ten million games, but don't situations like this allow us to really study, examine, and understand the rules and casebook interpretations?

Too bad Raymond's general statement probably doesn't cover my first two situations involving replacement jumpers or substitute jumpers where a poor toss by the official, or poor jumps by the jumpers, caused the re-jump, not a held ball (or similar) situation.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Okay, to make it simple. There are designated jumpers in the rulebook only in situations where two players cause a held ball prior to possession being established for the purposes of setting the AP arrow.

Coaches sending players to the center circle for overtime or the beginning of the game does not fall into the above category.

Now apply that logic to your scenarios.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I just realized that Raymond took two very specific casebook situations and came up with a pretty good general statement that should cover other situations.

(However, one of those two specific casebook situations (nonjumpers simultaneous touch out of bounds) is technically not a held ball. Maybe Raymond can re-word his statement.)

New Situation 5: During the jump ball between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, A1 and B1 both simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds. No substitutes report to the X in front of the table. Of the ten starters on the court, who is allowed to jump in the “re-jump”?

By Raymond's general casebook based rule, only A1 and B1 can "re-jump".

New Situation 6: Following the jump ball between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the tapped ball is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and then the ball goes out of bounds. On the “re-jump” between new “designated jumpers” A2 and B2, jumpers A2 and B2 simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds. No substitutes report to the X in front of the table. Of the ten starters on the court, who is allowed to jump in the “re-re-jump”?

By Raymond's general casebook based rule, only A2 and B2 can "re-jump".

I realize that Situation 6 is an extremely rare situation that may occur only once in ten million games, but don't situations like this allow us to really study, examine, and understand the rules and casebook interpretations?

Too bad Raymond's general statement probably doesn't cover my first two situations involving replacement jumpers or substitute jumpers where a poor toss by the official, or poor jumps by the jumpers, caused the re-jump, not a held ball (or similar) situation.

Going back to the Ancient (Pre-AP Arrow) Days "New Situation 6" could be descibed to include any time that A2 and B2 simultaneously caused the Ball to go Out-of-Bounds, whether or not there was Team Control at the time that the Ball went Out-of-Bounds, A2 and B2 would be the Jumpers, and either one could only be replaced because of injury. And it would also apply to "New Situation 5". Meaning that in the Post-Ancient Days "New Situations 5 and 6" would be treated the same way: the two Players who simultaneously caused the Ball to go Out-of-Bounds would be the Jumpers and either one could only be replaced because of injury.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Might as well jump (jump)
Go ahead and jump
Might as well jump (jump)
Go ahead and jump

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The language in the jump ball rule of a designated jumper is left over from prior to the AP arrow becoming part of the game.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Going back to the Ancient (Pre-AP Arrow) Days "New Situation 6" could be described to include any time that A2 and B2 simultaneously caused the Ball to go Out-of-Bounds, whether or not there was Team Control at the time that the Ball went Out-of-Bounds, A2 and B2 would be the Jumpers, and either one could only be replaced because of injury. And it would also apply to "New Situation 5". Meaning that in the Post-Ancient Days "New Situations 5 and 6" would be treated the same way: the two Players who simultaneously caused the Ball to go Out-of-Bounds would be the Jumpers and either one could only be replaced because of injury.

I believe that Nevadaref and Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. have hit the nail right on the head.

In 1985 when the NFHS Rules Committee adopted the alternating possession throw‐in for all jump or held‐ball situations except the start of the game and each extra period they appear to have failed to change all the language to fully cover all situations that could possibly lead to a post-1985 jump ball.

Have we discovered a thirty-five year old careless, incomplete, editing mistake?

Is "designated jumper" another fine mess that the NFHS has gotten us into (with apologies to Oliver Hardy)?

Even if the jump ball language was cleaned up, would it help with my first two situations involving replacement/substitute jumpers where a poor toss by the official, or poor jumps by the jumpers, caused the re-jump (not caused by a held ball or simultaneous touch out of bounds situation before the alternating possession arrow had been established).

Originally Posted by BillyMac

1) Situation: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that player A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

2) Similar situation to begin the game, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for jumper A1. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

As LRZ stated earlier, there are no "entering substitute" restrictions because it's the start of the game (not an overtime period).

These situations are not about restricting "entering substitutes", these situations are about possibly restricting "designated jumpers".

Young'uns can search "fine mess" and Oliver Hardy on the Google.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

1) Situation: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that player A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

2) Similar situation to begin the game, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for jumper A1. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

By the way, in the heat of the game, I'm not allowing the Team A coach to make either of these substitutions/replacements.

Now, if I were taking a written exam on these two situations, I'm still leaning the same way based on the ancient concept of "designated jumper", but I can be convinced otherwise.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Okay, to make it simple. There are designated jumpers in the rulebook only in situations where two players cause a held ball prior to possession being established for the purposes of setting the AP arrow.

Coaches sending players to the center circle for overtime or the beginning of the game does not fall into the above category.

Now apply that logic to your scenarios.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That is a nice sentiment, but is it your personal opinion or can you back that up with an NFHS ruling?
If you notice, I asked earlier in this thread if there is a designated jumper to start the game or any extra period. I couldn’t find a clear answer in the rules book.

You can feel free to show me where in the rule book anything I said is incorrect. You've already stated you can't find anywhere in the rule that states the opening and OT jumpers are "designated", so you obviously can't refute that sentiment.

If you are going to take your usual condescending tone, at least have a citation or reference to go along with it. My rule book reference has already been posted by others.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMace

Originally Posted by BillyMac
1) Situation: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that player A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

2) Similar situation to begin the game, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for jumper A1. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

By the way, in the heat of the game, I'm not allowing the Team A coach to make either of these substitutions/replacements.

Now, if I were taking a written exam on these two situations, I'm still leaning the same way based on the ancient concept of "designated jumper", but I can be convinced otherwise.

I have not seen a citation or reference that tells me I can't allow subs in those situations.

[ilyazhito]

A1 is a jumper by virtue of having participated in the initial jump ball. Because it did not legally end, he still remains a jumper. A jumper or a free thrower cannot be substituted for unless he is injured, ill, or disqualified. A6 cannot enter the game to substitute for A1, because the jump ball has not ended. If the jump ball had been legally or illegally ended, i.e. because of a jump ball violation or one jumper tipping the ball straight out of bounds, then the substitution of A6 for A1 would be legal. A2 cannot replace A1 because the jump ball must be attempted again. According to Rule 6-4-3-NOTE, "When the alternating-possession procedure has not been established, the jump ball shall be in the center restraining circle between the two players involved in the subsequent action." The subsequent action was A1 and B1 failing to touch the tossed ball, so they must, by rule, be the two players involved in the second jump ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I have not seen a citation or reference that tells me I can't allow subs in those situations.

I agree, which is why I asked about these situations to begin with. I believe that the NFHS dropped the ball back in 1985 and didn't do a perfect job, taking into consideration all possible situations, of changing the game from one with many jump balls to a game with one (or a few) jump balls, especially by diluting the meaning of "designated jumper".