Camps this Offseason

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Camps are not necessary for hiring. Recommendations to a supervisor or that person or his designee observing the official elsewhere can suffice. Camps are simply a way for supervisors to make money and if it could be demonstrated that they are essentially a kickback to the person doing the hiring, then the system would be illegal under federal law.

I understand assigners, especially at the college level, wanting to personally see an official before hiring. But they should not be charging more for camp than to cover their costs, or the conference should cover those costs. I just can't believe conference commissioners have sat back and allowed the current racket to happen when they are already paying assigners for exactly the same thing assigners charge prospective officials and arm and a leg for. Common sense would say they are getting ripped off.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

I understand assigners, especially at the college level, wanting to personally see an official before hiring. But they should not be charging more for camp than to cover their costs, or the conference should cover those costs. I just can't believe conference commissioners have sat back and allowed the current racket to happen when they are already paying assigners for exactly the same thing assigners charge prospective officials and arm and a leg for. Common sense would say they are getting ripped off.

Regardless of whether you agree with or not, you are being charged for their time and their service. After all you should go to camps with the idea you are going to learn something. If your only goal is to only get hired, you are doing it wrong. Also the better camps that cost the most money, often have several people on their staff or retired officials that have a lot of knowledge, they are sitting all day to watch you work a game to give you some information. And they are asked to tell the assignor who they should consider.

If we don't like the camp system, what is the solution? If you want people hired simply off of recommendations and not seeing them work or only watch someone on film (which everyone cannot get for their games), then we would complain who is getting hired.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Regardless of whether you agree with or not, you are being charged for their time and their service. After all you should go to camps with the idea you are going to learn something. If your only goal is to only get hired, you are doing it wrong. Also the better camps that cost the most money, often have several people on their staff or retired officials that have a lot of knowledge, they are sitting all day to watch you work a game to give you some information. And they are asked to tell the assignor who they should consider.

If we don't like the camp system, what is the solution? If you want people hired simply off of recommendations and not seeing them work or only watch someone on film (which everyone cannot get for their games), then we would complain who is getting hired.

Peace

Nowhere did I say eliminate camps, Jeff. I called out the double-dipping profiteering by coordinators which apparently league commissioners are oblivious to, or just don't care about. Have camp all you want, but charging more than what's needed to cover your expenses is unethical when you are already getting paid by the conference, plain and simple.

I don't anticipate it ever changing. After all, this is a capitalistic society. But the college camp circuit is a racket, and everyone knows it.

And I hate to break it to you, but the majority of tryout camps are the exact same year-after-year. Just because you pay $600 to go to a consortium camp does not mean you are learning anymore there than you would if you paid $200 to go to a camp hosted by an NBA official. So the notion that "the better camps cost the most money" is kind of ridiculous. Those camps are not wildly expensive because of their outstanding instruction.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Nowhere did I say eliminate camps, Jeff. I called out the double-dipping profiteering by coordinators which apparently league commissioners are oblivious to, or just don't care about. Have camp all you want, but charging more than what's needed to cover your expenses is unethical when you are already getting paid by the conference, plain and simple.

But when people say to change the camp system, they often say to eliminate or change the camps. So that is why I asked what is the solution? Are we are to be happy with that change?

Originally Posted by SC Official

I don't anticipate it ever changing. After all, this is a capitalistic society. But the college camp circuit is a racket, and everyone knows it.

There are people that might be upset about how much they pay for a specific camp, but that might be based the camp they are attending.

Originally Posted by SC Official

And I hate to break it to you, but the majority of tryout camps are the exact same year-after-year. Just because you pay $600 to go to a consortium camp does not mean you are learning anymore there than you would if you paid $200 to go to a camp hosted by an NBA official. So the notion that "the better camps cost the most money" is kind of ridiculous. Those camps are not wildly expensive because of their outstanding instruction.

I have been to both. Usually, the $200 camp has fewer games and fewer payoffs if hired. Usually, that is the cost for those that work lower-level conferences (NAIA or Division 3) where you might make that back in one game check. You get hired at the $600 camp, the check for those games has a comma associated with them. It is a choice that you have to make. You are an independent contractor. If I go to a sales seminar or some training for self-improvement, I might pay more to attend and that will include the same expenses. I might pay a lot more than $600 to register as well. This is a business, this is not an obligation for you to attend. That is certainly not the cost for local high school camps that I am associated with that might be anywhere from $25 to $60 as an average if you need to get high school credit and officials in my area complain about that!!!! And you had no overnight stays, no multiple days and even if you are working with the right camp, they might get you some money to work additional games so you get some of your camp fee back.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by SC Official

I understand assigners, especially at the college level, wanting to personally see an official before hiring. But they should not be charging more for camp than to cover their costs, or the conference should cover those costs. I just can't believe conference commissioners have sat back and allowed the current racket to happen when they are already paying assigners for exactly the same thing assigners charge prospective officials and arm and a leg for. Common sense would say they are getting ripped off.

Send them some game film. I only hire for 24 HS at the varsity level, but I use film all the time. You can tell who can ref in a short period of time.

The camp system exists for the $$. The venue pays the camp, the officials pay the camp, and the camp organizers (who are already paid supervisors) get rich.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Rich

Send them some game film. I only hire for 24 HS at the varsity level, but I use film all the time. You can tell who can ref in a short period of time.

The camp system exists for the $$. The venue pays the camp, the officials pay the camp, and the camp organizers (who are already paid supervisors) get rich.

The problem is all game film is not created equal.

I agree with you that the camp system exists for the money, but I do understand that their is legitimate apprehension behind hiring someone unseen. Host a camp all you want, but the double-dipping is unethical.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by SC Official

The problem is all game film is not created equal.

I agree with you that the camp system exists for the money, but I do understand that their is legitimate apprehension behind hiring someone unseen. Host a camp all you want, but the double-dipping is unethical.

It's triple-dipping. Get a paycheck, get official camp fees, get game fees for the camp games.

[Raymond]

The college camp system is in definite need of an overhaul. Supervisors are double dipping, and most times you are not getting instruction commensurate to the amount of money you pay. Additionally, quite often no matter how good you are, you're not getting hired the first time around. Some supervisors say that it's a function of "getting to know you better", but just as often it's a function of getting more money from that official before hiring them.

What's really appalling are camps that charge $500 to $600 yet provide no housing or meals.



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[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The college camp system is in definite need of an overhaul. Supervisors are double dipping, and most times you are not getting instruction commensurate to the amount of money you pay. Additionally, quite often no matter how good you are, you're not getting hired the first time around. Some supervisors say that it's a function of "getting to know you better", but just as often it's a function of getting more money from that official before hiring them.

What's really appalling are camps that charge $500 to $600 yet provide no housing or meals.

This really is about the level of camp you are attending. Because an NAIA or D3 camp is not the same as a major conference consortium camp. Those have a much smaller margin for error. Also if you attend those games, you can get hired the first time, but you probably have to be already working D1. I have a friend that got hired going the first time, but he was already working at the D1 level. And he had some people speaking on his behalf too which helped.

I got hired in two leagues I work the first time I attended camp too, but that was lower-level college and I was recommended to go to the camps. Also in both those camps, almost all the clinicians were the same so I was seen 3 times by the same people in for these two supervisors. Any little thing helps. Oh, neither of those camps I referenced were over $300. The supervisors are D1 officials and my location change probably helped too.

I do not know how I get hired in either without going to camp. This also might be a part of the country thing too. Out West, there is an assignor that runs no camps, because he was told not to. The Midwest where I live, the B1G has taken over several leagues and took on a couple of D3 leagues under their umbrella. So an official that works D3 can go to the B1G camp and already have access to those that make the decision for the consortium hires. I have no idea what happens on the East Coast or the South. The SEC has a new supervisor so we will see if he changes some things.

Peace

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Out West, there is an assignor that runs no camps, because he was told not to.

The only D1 assignor "out west" has an invite only camp conducted in the Spring for the past 3-years in Phoenix, Az. The only cost to campers was transportation and hotel accommodations. It was was canceled this year due to the pandemic and not rescheduled.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

The only D1 assignor "out west" has an invite only camp conducted in the Spring for the past 3-years in Phoenix, Az. The only cost to campers was transportation and hotel accommodations. It was was canceled this year due to the pandemic and not rescheduled.

And how do you get on the invite list?

Peace

[LRZ]

"Out West, there is an assignor that runs no camps, because he was told not to."

I'm not being sarcastic; I'm really just curious: is there an interesting or relevant story behind this?

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And how do you get on the invite list?

Peace

Submit a resume to a member of the rating/evaluation consortium staff. They conduct a background check of your resume from your listed college assignors and stated post-season assignments; there have been applicants who were denied because they "exaggerated" their resume. If it all passed, they made a list of the camp invitees for approval from BD.

[Raymond]

I don't know who's talking about getting rid of camps, at least I know I'm not. I'm talking about getting rid of the exorbitant prices we pay to go to camp, and sometimes to stay on staff

Talked to somebody today who had initially paid $500 to go to a staff camp this spring, but it got postponed For various reasons they have since decided to relocate to another state, which will take them too far away from the conference. The supervisor does not want to give them back their camp fee, for a camp that's still at least two months away. That's the mindset and environment I'm talking about.

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[Player989random]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I don't know who's talking about getting rid of camps, at least I know I'm not. I'm talking about getting rid of the exorbitant prices we pay to go to camp, and sometimes to stay on staff

... That's the mindset and environment I'm talking about.

I wholeheartedly agree. The "free training camps" we have to do for one of our shared assignors does nothing but pad his pocketbook with our sweat. It ticks me off. With all my free time I'm starting to question why I even pursue this hobby at that level.

Originally Posted by SC Official

And when you point out the politics or the camp racket people say "well, you must not care about getting better." It's as though it's taboo to talk about the flaws.

This issue exists at all levels as well. I think they all secretly want to replace the assignor and then do the same things that we hate, so they can cash in. Or they don't want to acknowledge that they don't belong there. "**** you, I got mine".