Wrong team awarded AP throw-in

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm pretty sure that most of the time the mistake is recognized before the throw-in ends, even if the whistle isn't blown until after the throw-in ends. That meets the spirit of the rule.

Middle schools almost never have alternating possession arrows at the table. I've had several occasions where as I'm about to hand the ball to the wrong team, maybe even having already handed the ball to the wrong team, and then the fans, coach, table, or partner (sometimes even a little bird in my own head) causes me to take pause, and even take the ball away from the inbounder.

I always appreciate help to prevent mistakes, especially mistakes by yours truly.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Middle schools almost never have alternating possession arrows at the table. I've had several occasions where as I'm about to hand the ball to the wrong team, maybe even having already handed the ball to the wrong team, and then the fans, coach, table, or partner (sometimes even a little bird in my own head) causes me to take pause, and even take the ball away from the inbounder.

I always appreciate help to prevent mistakes, especially mistakes by yours truly.

I do not know how it is in the Nutmeg State but here in the Buckeye State one will find an AP Arrow at the Scorer's Table at every M.S., Jr. H.S., and H.S. I can honestly say that I have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) officiated a an OhioHSAA sanctioned game at a M.S., Jr. H.S., or H.S. that did not have an AP Arrow since the AP Rule was adopted.

MTD, Sr.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I do not know how it is in the Nutmeg State but here in the Buckeye State one will find an AP Arrow at the Scorer's Table at every M.S., Jr. H.S., and H.S. I can honestly say that I have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) officiated a an OhioHSAA sanctioned game at a M.S., Jr. H.S., or H.S. that did not have an AP Arrow since the AP Rule was adopted.

MTD, Sr.

"Middle schools almost never have alternating possession arrows at the table."

Agree, I find it hard to believe that it is rare that a MS table has an arrow. Do these same schools also have scoreboards without an A/P indicator.

And if there actually is not physical A/P device one can be configured in about 3 seconds or less. Just draw an arrow on a sheet of paper or, just use a pen/pencil, shoe, stapler, or anything else as your arrow. Sure those items can get dislodged/bumped but scorer should be recording it anyway. Additionally, the chances of a McGyver-made arrow getting moved at the table are as remote as the school not having one in the first place. Lastly, each official should be, in their own respective way, recording the A/P arrow, especially when at these school which are known to not have one.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bucky

"Middle schools almost never have alternating possession arrows at the table."

Agree, I find it hard to believe that it is rare that a MS table has an arrow. Do these same schools also have scoreboards without an A/P indicator.

And if there actually is not physical A/P device one can be configured in about 3 seconds or less. Just draw an arrow on a sheet of paper or, just use a pen/pencil, shoe, stapler, or anything else as your arrow. Sure those items can get dislodged/bumped but scorer should be recording it anyway. Additionally, the chances of a McGyver-made arrow getting moved at the table are as remote as the school not having one in the first place. Lastly, each official should be, in their own respective way, recording the A/P arrow, especially when at these school which are known to not have one.

What BillyMac says of middle school tables is true in my area as well. Also, most of the scoreboards are old and either do not show possession or the operator has no clue how to post it.

I completely disagree with your statement that the officials should be recording the arrow. By rule, that is not our responsibility. If the scorer fails to track individual or team fouls, do you want the officials to keep those totals as well? Stop putting everything on the officials and let the other personnel handle their duties.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What BillyMac says of middle school tables is true in my area as well. Also, most of the scoreboards are old and either do not show possession or the operator has no clue how to post it.

I completely disagree with your statement that the officials should be recording the arrow. By rule, that is not our responsibility. If the scorer fails to track individual or team fouls, do you want the officials to keep those totals as well? Stop putting everything on the officials and let the other personnel handle their duties.

How much brain power does it take to remember the arrow? Seriously, it's not that hard and it prevents problems when you have tables that are less than stellar.

Guess what, I also keep track of team fouls, either by checking the scoreboard every time a foul is called or simply keeping track in my head.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Raymond

How much brain power does it take to remember the arrow? Seriously, it's not that hard and it prevents problems when you have tables that are less than stellar.

Guess what, I also keep track of team fouls, either by checking the scoreboard every time a foul is called or simply keeping track in my head.

I do the same thing as you and have been told by HS officials that it's "not our job."

[bob jenkins]

It's harder to continue to do at a MS game -- especially if it's girls and if you work two (or more) in a row.

Some of the games have more held balls than points (or so it seems)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SC Official

I do the same thing as you and have been told by HS officials that it's "not our job."

I was taught to do so by a high school trainer my first few years in officiating. She would come up to us in camp games during breaks and ask us the score, team fouls, and AP arrow. That person is now a college supervisor for two NCAA-Women's conferences, one D1 and one D2, after serving a few years as a Women's D1 regional observer.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I completely disagree with your statement that the officials should be recording the arrow. By rule, that is not our responsibility. If the scorer fails to track individual or team fouls, do you want the officials to keep those totals as well? Stop putting everything on the officials and let the other personnel handle their duties.

You do? You truly disagree that refs should not record A/P in some way when there isn't one present? Wow, what do you do then, nothing? Do you guess every held ball? Do you ask the coaches? Plus, refs do many things that our not our responsibility "by rule". Keep track of fouls? Of course not as it is too difficult to manage for most, but recording the A/P is easy and prevents far more headaches than foul counts. The premise is a MS game and letting most personnel (BM cited students) handle their duties is ill-advised. In fact, I bet the OP was about a table not handling their duties correctly. It is very likely that the table misinformed the crew. If the refs were recording it correctly, then there likely would not have been the error. Get real Nevada.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... disagree with your statement that the officials should be recording the arrow.

Originally Posted by bucky

You truly disagree that refs should not record A/P in some way ...

"Recording" is a strong word, and while it's true that the NFHS doesn't require officials to record the alternating possession arrow (it only requires an arrow at the table and a record of "jump balls" (interestingly not held balls, or intermissions, stupid NFHS) in the scorebook), it's probably a good idea that officials have an educated "opinion" when it comes to the correct direction of the alternating possession arrow, be it a memory, a whistle in one's pocket, or an elastic band on one's wrist. This is especially true when there are student scorekeepers and timekeepers at the table.

While a whistle in one's pocket is strongly encouraged (and taught to rookies) here in my little corner of Connecticut (on all levels, including varsity, been doing this since God created the alternating possession arrow on the eighth day), it's not mandatory (but it's pretty close to mandatory, our "Rome thing").

[BillyMac]

(With apologies to William Shakespeare.)

Originally Posted by bucky

And if there actually is not physical A/P device one can be configured in about 3 seconds or less. Just draw an arrow on a sheet of paper or, just use a pen/pencil, shoe, stapler, or anything else as your arrow. Sure those items can get dislodged/bumped but scorer should be recording it anyway. Additionally, the chances of a McGyver-made arrow getting moved at the table are as remote as the school not having one in the first place.

Agree, but we have a different solution. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, officials are strongly encouraged to keep some type of physical "arrow" on one's person, usually a whistle that changes pockets, sometimes an elastic band on one's wrist. We've been doing this since God created the alternating possession arrow on the eighth day.

It's our "Rome thing".

With one exception, all my middle school scorekeepers have been students, and I don't believe that any of them kept track of alternating possessions in the scorebook.

I worked an almost entire schedule of middle school games (post arthritis/bone spur) this year (one freshman game), at about a dozen and a half different middle schools and not one of them had a "real" arrow at the table. Alternating possession on the scoreboard? You've got to be kidding me (plus the NFHS states that the arrow on the scoreboard is irrelevant)? Not a single middle school had team fouls the scoreboard. One had one of those portable AAU-type scoreboards at the table.

"Is it one and one yet? Are you sure?" (knowing that it probably was).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

... here in the Buckeye State one will find an AP Arrow at the Scorer's Table at every M.S., Jr. H.S., and H.S. I can honestly say that I have never officiated a an OhioHSAA sanctioned game at a M.S., Jr. H.S., or H.S. that did not have an AP Arrow since the AP Rule was adopted.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Billy:

ROFLMTO!!

MTD, Sr.