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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 04:13am
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Wrong team awarded AP throw-in

A play straight out of the NFHS basketball case book occurred tonight in the large-school boys regional championship game.

The referee awarded the ball to the wrong team to start the second quarter. The throw-in was completed and a player was dribbling in the frontcourt near the 28-foot mark when the horn was sounded by the table crew. Play was stopped with 7:56 on the clock and officials were informed that the other team should have had the ball to begin the quarter.

What did the crew do?
Reset the clock to 8:00 and start the quarter over with the other team executing an AP throw-in from the division line opposite the table. Yikes!
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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 06:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
A play straight out of the NFHS basketball case book occurred tonight in the large-school boys regional championship game.

The referee awarded the ball to the wrong team to start the second quarter. The throw-in was completed and a player was dribbling in the frontcourt near the 28-foot mark when the horn was sounded by the table crew. Play was stopped with 7:56 on the clock and officials were informed that the other team should have had the ball to begin the quarter.

What did the crew do?
Reset the clock to 8:00 and start the quarter over with the other team executing an AP throw-in from the division line opposite the table. Yikes!


Yay! Common sense prevailed. Not a single person involved in the game thought that was the wrong thing to do.


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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 08:11am
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Yay! Common sense prevailed. Not a single person involved in the game thought that was the wrong thing to do.
Well, that presents us with a quandry.
Now I'm not sure now how to train officials what to learn and enforce.
A) "Common Sense" = the rule as written, which is available to everyone everywhere?
...or...
B) "Common Sense" = Rich's opinion, which is known only by those who are aware of his personal preference?
Right when I thought this was getting easy. Ugh.
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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 08:13am
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Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Well, that presents us with a quandry.

Now I'm not sure now how to train officials what to learn and enforce.

A) "Common Sense" = the rule as written, which is available to everyone everywhere?

...or...

B) "Common Sense" = Rich's opinion, which is known only by those who are aware of his personal preference?

Right when I thought this was getting easy. Ugh.



It's a terrible rule. Should fall under correctable errors before a change of possession.

Nobody playing in the game with any integrity wants an unwarranted possession.


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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 09:39am
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I agree with Rich's point that a "do over" in this situation makes logical sense, but the problem is the myriad of what ifs that come in to play. The rule was written the way it was to provide a consistent way to deal with this situation and avoiding the various things that might happen after the throw-in is completed. Obviously it makes sense in the situation presented because only 4 seconds elapsed, but what if it had been 30 seconds? Do we still have a do over? What if the defense had committed a foul and it was discovered at that point? Do we still have a do over including erasing the foul? What if the offense had called a timeout and it was discovered then? Do we still have a do over and give the timeout back? I'm sure we could come up with logical ways to handle all of these, but the door is wide open for random decisions by officials if it isn't supported by the rules.
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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 10:38am
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How about this? If there is an intervening act--e.g., a foul, violation or basket--apply the rule as written. If not, do it over. This would be as consistent as the current rule.

I've had this happen once or twice. In one game, we caught our error just after the in-bound player caught the throw-in; we did a do-over. The other time, the coach brought our error to our attention after a basket had been scored; I explained the rule to the coach, who accepted the explanation, and we played on from the point of the basket.

In any event, it serves as a reminder, when there is a break in the action, to always reinforce whose throw-in and where.

Edit, after Raymond's comment (Post #7): Neither of my errors occurred on AP possessions, but after time-outs. But Raymond's point is a good one.

Last edited by LRZ; Sun Feb 23, 2020 at 12:07pm.
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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 10:59am
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An example of why officials need to be diligent in tracking the AP arrow internally.

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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 12:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
How about this? If there is an intervening act--e.g., a foul, violation or basket--apply the rule as written. If not, do it over. This would be as consistent as the current rule.

I've had this happen once or twice. In one game, we caught our error just after the in-bound player caught the throw-in; we did a do-over. The other time, the coach brought our error to our attention after a basket had been scored; I explained the rule to the coach, who accepted the explanation, and we played on from the point of the basket.
And I think your exact scenarios reflect the intent of the rule.
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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 12:20pm
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The approved options for when officials get something wrong -- I'm thinkin' 2-10 here, to wit -- seem to be such that they inflict pain upon the crew such because the resolution isn't understood ("That's not fair!") and takes extraordinary 'splainin'. I wonder if by intent. Hmmmm.
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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 12:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
A play straight out of the NFHS basketball case book occurred tonight in the large-school boys regional championship game.
6.4.1 SITUATION D: It is Team B’s turn for the next throw-in under the alternating- possession procedure. By mistake, Team A is given that throw-in. Team A completes the throw-in to teammate A2. RULING: Once the throw-in ends – it is too late to change anything ... it is too late to correct the error of awarding the ball to the wrong team. The alternating-possession arrow will remain for Team B’s next throw-in. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 6-4-5)

7-6-6: When an official administers a throw-in to the wrong team, the
mistake must be rectified before the throw-in ends.


The way I remember this AP interpretation is to use the silly phrase (not actually stated to the coach, that wouldn't sit well with him), "Sorry coach, but you'll get two of the next three".

If the NFHS wanted this interpreted a different way, they would have made it a correctable error (or somehow changed it) a very long time ago.

7-6-6 is very clear, doesn't leave any wiggle room, and can be consistently applied, even if it doesn't seem fair (like some actual corrected correctable errors).

I believe that in situations like this, it's probably best to go by the written rule (it's pretty difficult for someone (coach, assignment commissioner, athletic director) to complain when one goes by the book (even though they may still complain about the original error).

Just be 100% certain that the offended team gets the next arrow. To do otherwise would invite disaster.



But who knows? Managing the game is sometimes more than just rulebook knowledge. Maybe two wrongs do make a right?

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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 12:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The referee awarded the ball to the wrong team to start the second quarter.
I'm curious. Why? Or how?

Arrow at table pointing wrong way? Referee screwed it up by not looking at the table (had the wrong team in his head, or his extra whistle in the wrong pocket, or elastic band on the wrong wrist)? Wrong team stepped out of bounds to take the disposal? If it was a two person game (doubt it for a regional championship game), was the referee's partner standing on the wrong side of the court?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 23, 2020 at 03:04pm.
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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 01:30pm
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I'm not sure how serious my post was, to be honest.

But it is a terrible rule.

I've had this kind of thing happen once. Lack of focus. Wrong team took the ball after a timeout. Partner hit the whistle close to the end of the throw-in, we corrected, we moved on.
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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 02:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Reset the clock to 8:00 ...
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 23, 2020 at 02:33pm.
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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 03:11pm
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I'm pretty sure that most of the time the mistake is recognized before the throw-in ends, even if the whistle isn't blown until after the throw-in ends. That meets the spirit of the rule.
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Old Sun Feb 23, 2020, 03:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I'm pretty sure that most of the time the mistake is recognized before the throw-in ends, even if the whistle isn't blown until after the throw-in ends. That meets the spirit of the rule.
Middle schools almost never have alternating possession arrows at the table. I've had several occasions where as I'm about to hand the ball to the wrong team, maybe even having already handed the ball to the wrong team, and then the fans, coach, table, or partner (sometimes even a little bird in my own head) causes me to take pause, and even take the ball away from the inbounder.

I always appreciate help to prevent mistakes, especially mistakes by yours truly.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 23, 2020 at 04:05pm.
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