Throw-in NFHS

[rwodar]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Yes.

So this explains the foul portion but doesn’t help explain the 10 second count start point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rwodar

So this explains the foul portion but doesn’t help explain the 10 second count start point.

Which is why we need additional citations:

9-8: A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds.

4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.

4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

Fouls (Rule 10) and violations (Rule 9)? Apples and oranges.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by rwodar

So this explains the foul portion but doesn’t help explain the 10 second count start point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Back in old days the control, player and team rule, 4-12 did not contain 4-12-2d-“when a player of team has disposal of ball for throwin.” Also, 4-12-6 used to specifically say there is no team control during a throwin. It was clear back then team control was an INBOUNDS concept. There was also no team control foul definition.

They then decided they didn’t want to shoot so many free throws so they created team control fouls and said no FTs for those. As mentioned above, team control definition was an inbounds thing. So no FTs for illegal screens etc. by team in control of ball inbounds. FTs were still shot if the throwin team fouled during the throwin. (Assuming bonus)
They then decided they didn’t want to shoot FTs when throwin team fouled during throwin so they added 4-12-2d language.

Adding that language to the rest of rule 4-12 makes it read like once ball at disposal for throwin team control exists and continues until ball dead, field goal attempt etc. I understand the confusion of it because it reads like you interpreted it.

As noted by others, they added language to make it clear team control during throwin and in til player control is obtained is for foul purposes only.

They were not intending to change Violation concepts. BC count has always started when player controls ball inbounds. They were trying to eliminate some FTs and confused many folks.

[ilyazhito]

There are only 2 logically consistent ways to resolve this conundrum of having team control exist (and simultaneously not exist) at different times for different purposes: either eliminate throw-ins from the discussion of team control altogether, or introduce a shot clock into NFHS basketball.

Some states use a shot clock with the visible 10-second count (MD boys), while others have modified their backcourt count rule to incorporate a non-visible count that starts per existing college rules (DC boys). In either approach, the states using a shot clock recognize that team control exists from the throw-in. The only question is whether player control is required (or not) to start the 10-second count off the throw-in. However, we (the NFHS rules-making and enforcing community) can decide this once a shot clock is adopted for high school basketball, whether nationally or by one's local state association.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

There are only 2 logically consistent ways to resolve this conundrum of having team control exist (and simultaneously not exist) at different times for different purposes: either eliminate throw-ins from the discussion of team control altogether, or introduce a shot clock into NFHS basketball.

Some states use a shot clock with the visible 10-second count (MD boys), while others have modified their backcourt count rule to incorporate a non-visible count that starts per existing college rules (DC boys). In either approach, the states using a shot clock recognize that team control exists from the throw-in. The only question is whether player control is required (or not) to start the 10-second count off the throw-in. However, we (the NFHS rules-making and enforcing community) can decide this once a shot clock is adopted for high school basketball, whether nationally or by one's local state association.

Overkill. The shot clock has absolutely nothing to do with this. There are many ways to fix that, all of which don't take the equivalent of using dynamite to kill a mosquito.

[BigCat]

I think 4-12-2d should be removed. Then a 4-12-7 created to say” for foul purposes only, there shall be team control when ball at disposal of team for throwin until player control obtained inbounds.

Something like that to make it read better than it does now....

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I think 4-12-2d should be removed. Then a 4-12-7 created to say” for foul purposes only, there shall be team control when ball at disposal of team for throwin until player control obtained inbounds.

Something like that to make it read better than it does now....

You could leave team control out of it entirely....no need to say there is team control at all.

Just like the "player control foul" says it applies to airborne shooters even though there is no "player control", you could simply say "team control fouls" apply to throwins even though there is no "team control".

They could even create a new type of foul that would apply to "offensive" players when there is no team control. It would apply to airborne shooters and throwing team players on throwins until team control is secured.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... create a new type of foul that would apply to "offensive" players when there is no team control. It would apply to airborne shooters and throwing team players on throwins until team control is secured.

The mythical, infamous "offensive foul".

Often talked about by television commentators but never actually observed, kind of like Bigfoot, but even more elusive.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You could leave team control out of it entirely....no need to say there is team control at all.

Just like the "player control foul" says it applies to airborne shooters even though there is no "player control", you could simply say "team control fouls" apply to throwins even though there is no "team control".

They could even create a new type of foul that would apply to "offensive" players when there is no team control. It would apply to airborne shooters and throwing team players on throwins until team control is secured.

Yes, create a throw-in foul category and revert to the old NFHS team control rule.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You could leave team control out of it entirely....no need to say there is team control at all.

Just like the "player control foul" says it applies to airborne shooters even though there is no "player control", you could simply say "team control fouls" apply to throwins even though there is no "team control".

They could even create a new type of foul that would apply to "offensive" players when there is no team control. It would apply to airborne shooters and throwing team players on throwins until team control is secured.

Not sure this would be a good rule. If I understand the idea correctly, this would enable the team that is behind to commit offensive fouls immediately after the release of each of their shot attempts causing the clock to stop while the try is still airborne, the attempt still counts if it goes, the opposing team would get no free throws just like the player control foul even though there is no player control. Plus the opponents would likely have an end line throw in allowing the team that is behind to set up their press.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Overkill. The shot clock has absolutely nothing to do with this. There are many ways to fix that, all of which don't take the equivalent of using dynamite to kill a mosquito.

With the shot clock, team control begins once a team has possession of the ball (or is entitled to possession by having the ball at its disposal). Since a team has control of the ball either inbounds or at its disposal, there is no reason to artificially create 2 different types of team control as NFHS rules mistakenly did. Because a team would already have control.once it has (or is entitled to) possession, and the shot clock is reset to its full value, having a shot clock would ease administration of the backcourt count rule, since team control.would not change unless player control.changes on the court or a shot is released, keeping in line with the normal interpretation of player control.

If the shot clock does not emerge, I would support creating a throw-in foul category as an exception to the bonus rules, so that there are not 2 different types of team control.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

With the shot clock, team control begins once a team has possession of the ball (or is entitled to possession by having the ball at its disposal). Since a team has control of the ball either inbounds or at its disposal, there is no reason to artificially create 2 different types of team control as NFHS rules mistakenly did. Because a team would already have control.once it has (or is entitled to) possession, and the shot clock is reset to its full value, having a shot clock would ease administration of the backcourt count rule, since team control.would not change unless player control.changes on the court or a shot is released, keeping in line with the normal interpretation of player control.

If the shot clock does not emerge, I would support creating a throw-in foul category as an exception to the bonus rules, so that there are not 2 different types of team control.

Shot clock still has NOTHING to do with all of those things. You could have all of those things simply by stating team control exists for all purposes when the throwin begins. They don't want that. Adding a shot clock to make those things happen is entirely unnecessary. They could make those things happen without a shot clock...and probably more easily than adding a shot clock.

You're making it a lot more complicated than it needs to be....the only wanted a way to have no FTs for fouls that occur during throw-in activity.