backcourt violation?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

So I guess in your world if a player pushes off with his off hand in between dribbles it is not a player control foul since he's not touching the ball at that exact moment. I guess he gains and losses player control every time he bats the ball to the floor.

Never said that.

4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who
bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the
floor once or several times.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I also believe that this is a backcourt violation, but I'm not sure that player control is the correct citation after reading the actual rule as written:

9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

4-4-1: A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player (either player if the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt.

All of that is irrelevant. A player who is dribbling has player control. If he steps on the division line, it's a backcourt violation. Doesn't matter if he is dribbling or holding the ball. Player Control = Possession.

4-4-1 accounts for players who DO NOT HAVE PLAYER CONTROL/POSSESSION.

A player who has PC meets all conditions of 9-9-1. He stepped into the back court while in possession of the ball. It is irrelevant if he does so while actually batting the ball or in between bats.

Quit using dictionary definitions. PC equals touching the ball whether there is contact or not with the ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

A player who is dribbling has player control. If he steps on the division line, it's a backcourt violation. He stepped into the back court while in possession of the ball. It is irrelevant if he does so while actually batting the ball or in between bats. PC equals touching the ball whether there is contact or not with the ball.

Agree with your definition of player control. Agree that this is a backcourt violation. Fuzzy on the irrelevant part. Touching seems to be relevant, not necessarily player control, to the backcourt rule.

9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

No mention of player control in the rule (other then needing player control to establish team control).

4-4-1 seems to be say that if either the ball or the player touches backcourt it's the same as if both touched the backcourt.

4-4-1: A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player is touching the backcourt.

I'm still not certain, and I'm still looking for relevant citations.

Maybe 9-3-1-Note (A player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds. The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds) is the correct citation?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Never said that.

4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who
bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the
floor once or several times.

So why does it matter if he's actually touching the ball when he steps on the division line?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

So why does it matter if he's actually touching the ball when he steps on the division line?

Because player control doesn't appear to be part of the backcourt rule.

"While in player control, a ball handler, or dribbler, must not step into the backcourt", would be nice, but it's not the rule.

That's the way I call it every time, but it's not the rule.

We need to throw in 4-4-1, or 9-3-1-Note, or purpose and intent, or something else I'm missing, to complete the rule interpretation.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Because player control doesn't appear to be part of the backcourt rule.

So if I'm holding the ball in the front court I can step on the division line? (Based on you totally overthinking the rule, you are saying that a player can legally do this)

How is that any different than stepping on the division line while dribbling the ball in the front court.

To quote another post: 4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

[Raymond]

I'll sit here and wait while you explain why a player with FC status holding the ball is any different than a player with FC status dribbling the ball or how 9-9-1 doesn't apply.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I'll sit here and wait while you explain why a player with FC status holding the ball is any different than a player with FC status dribbling the ball ...

Because while both have player control, one is holding the ball, and one is dribbling the ball. And player control is not written into the backcourt rule.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Because while both have player control, one is holding the ball, and one is dribbling the ball. And player control is not written into the backcourt rule.

Based on your new interpretation of the BC rule, a player who is dribbling while having FC status can step into the backcourt between each bat of the ball.

Cool interp Bro.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

So if I'm holding the ball in the front court I can step on the division line? (Based on you totally overthinking the rule, you are saying that a player can legally do this)

Never said that.

9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Never said that.

9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

What part of 9-9-1 doesn't apply to a player who is dribbling as opposed to a player holding the ball? 4-12-1 tells us there is no difference as to the ball's status. You even posted it yourself. So, as usual, you are arguing with yourself and making contradictory assertions.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

4-12-1 tells us there is no difference as to the ball's status.

The ball's status as in player control? Yes. But player control isn't mentioned in the backcourt rule (as written).

We need something additional to complete the interpretation, 4-4-1, or 9-3-1-Note, or purpose and intent.

I'll settle for purpose and intent, but would prefer 4-4-1, or 9-3-1-Note.