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-   -   backcourt violation? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104557-backcourt-violation.html)

bbcowboy Sat May 11, 2019 08:19pm

backcourt violation?
 
1--Player dribbles parallel to the division line and adjacent to the division line in his frontcourt.
While dribbling, he has both feet in the front court, but the ball touches the floor on the dribble in the backcourt. Is this a backcourt violation?
2--Player dribbles parallel to the division line and adjacent to the division line in his frontcourt.
While dribbling, he places one foot on the division line, but the other foot and the ball remain in the frontcourt, Is this a backcourt violation?
Thanks.

ODog Sat May 11, 2019 11:04pm

You're omitting a key detail. YOU'RE saying he's dribbling in frontcourt, but we can't be certain you really know what that means (unless you're an official). But taking you literally, both are violations.

1 -- If he's dribbling the ball from backcourt to frontcourt, and all three things (two feet and ball) have yet to touch the frontcourt, then no. But as you describe it, he's already firmly established in frontcourt (i.e., nothing touching backcourt), and then dribbles ball so it touches backcourt violation.
2 -- As you describe it, he's already firmly established in frontcourt (i.e., nothing touching backcourt), and then steps on division line violation.

BillyMac Sun May 12, 2019 10:10am

No Backcourt Violation Until A Touch ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcowboy (Post 1032717)
1--Player dribbles parallel to the division line and adjacent to the division line in his frontcourt. While dribbling, he has both feet in the front court, but the ball touches the floor on the dribble in the backcourt. Is this a backcourt violation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODog (Post 1032718)
1 ... But as you describe it, he's already firmly established in frontcourt (i.e., nothing touching backcourt), and then dribbles ball so it touches backcourt … violation.

As described, no backcourt violation.

No backcourt violation unless he touches the ball as it bounces off the floor in the backcourt back to his hand.

If he never touches the ball it's just a ball that bounces into the backcourt, and thus, no backcourt violation.

The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control (and initial player control
when coming from a throw-in); the ball must have achieved frontcourt status; the team in team control must
be the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt; that same team must be the first to touch after
the ball has been in the backcourt.


Do not confuse this backcourt play with 9-3-1-Note: A player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds. The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she
is out of bounds.


9-3-1-Note refers to an out of bounds violation, not a backcourt violation.

Two different animals.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.I...=0&w=412&h=174

JRutledge Sun May 12, 2019 09:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcowboy (Post 1032717)
1--Player dribbles parallel to the division line and adjacent to the division line in his frontcourt.
While dribbling, he has both feet in the front court, but the ball touches the floor on the dribble in the backcourt. Is this a backcourt violation?

When a player is dribbling from the BC to the FC, the player must have touched the FC with both feet an the ball. If the player is holding the ball, he has to have both feet completely in the FC. Then if he were to start a dribble and the ball touched the FC, that would be a violation.

Not very clear what happened first on your play. So it is possible this is not a violation of the player never completely came into FC status by the things I just described.


Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcowboy (Post 1032717)
2--Player dribbles parallel to the division line and adjacent to the division line in his frontcourt.
While dribbling, he places one foot on the division line, but the other foot and the ball remain in the frontcourt, Is this a backcourt violation?
Thanks.

Again if the player never reached FC status during the dribble, then the answer is no.

Peace

Altor Mon May 13, 2019 08:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrutledge (Post 1032730)
When a player is dribbling from the BC to the FC, the player must have touched the FC with both feet an the ball. If the player is holding the ball, he has to have both feet completely in the FC. Then if he were to start a dribble and the ball touched the FC BC, that would be a violation.

fify

bbcowboy Mon May 13, 2019 09:06am

In my above scenario, the player has already been established in the front court for several seconds, before the described actions.

BillyMac Mon May 13, 2019 09:21am

Follow The Bouncing Ball ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1032730)
So it is possible this is not a violation of the player never completely came into FC status by the things I just described.

Agree, but with hindsight, that's not what the original poster meant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcowboy (Post 1032735)
... the player has already been established in the front court for several seconds, before the described actions.

Even if the "player ... completely came into FC status (two feet and the ball had frontcourt status) ... this is ... not a violation" unless he touches the ball as it bounces off the floor in the backcourt back to his hand.

If he never touches the ball it's just a ball that bounces into the backcourt, and thus, no backcourt violation.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.t...=0&w=300&h=300

sdoebler Mon May 13, 2019 11:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcowboy (Post 1032735)
In my above scenario, the player has already been established in the front court for several seconds, before the described actions.

If front court status had been established both situations would be a backcourt violation

BillyMac Mon May 13, 2019 11:37am

Situation 1, No Backcourt ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sdoebler (Post 1032739)
If front court status had been established both situations would be a backcourt violation

Totally disagree with sdoebler's interpretation of Situation 1:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcowboy (Post 1032717)
1--Player dribbles parallel to the division line and adjacent to the division line in his frontcourt. While dribbling, he has both feet in the front court, but the ball touches the floor on the dribble in the backcourt. Is this a backcourt violation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032721)
As described, no backcourt violation.

No backcourt violation unless he touches the ball as it bounces off the floor in the backcourt back to his hand.

If he never touches the ball it's just a ball that bounces into the backcourt, and thus, no backcourt violation.

The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control (and initial player control
when coming from a throw-in); the ball must have achieved frontcourt status; the team in team control must
be the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt; that same team must be the first to touch after
the ball has been in the backcourt.


Do not confuse this backcourt play with 9-3-1-Note: A player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds. The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she
is out of bounds.


9-3-1-Note refers to an out of bounds violation, not a backcourt violation.

The ball could bounce, roll, and remain stationary, in the backcourt and not be a backcourt violation until it's touched by an offensive player.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.1...=0&w=300&h=300

sdoebler Mon May 13, 2019 11:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032740)
Totally disagree with sdoebler's interpretation of Situation 1:

I'm assuming the ball came back to his hand,

BillyMac Mon May 13, 2019 11:54am

Never Assume ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sdoebler (Post 1032741)
I'm assuming the ball came back to his hand,

https://youtu.be/svkgOsr7pUc

It doesn't say that in the original post.

Young'uns, or distracted veterans, may sound the whistle as soon as the ball touches the backcourt.

Anticipate the play, not the call.

Most of us realize that we have to wait for the offensive touch to call a backcourt violation.

Who knows? A defender could come in, make a steal, leading to a dunk down the other end?

More importantly, it's not the correct call.

bob jenkins Mon May 13, 2019 12:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032740)


The ball could bounce, roll, and remain stationary, in the backcourt for eight minutes and not be a backcourt violation until it's touched by an offensive player.

I agree it wouldn't be a backcourt violation. Instead, it would be a 10-second violation.

BillyMac Mon May 13, 2019 01:07pm

Hyperbole ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1032743)
I agree it wouldn't be a backcourt violation. Instead, it would be a 10-second violation.

Nice catch (I fixed it).

I have to watch out when I use hyperbole on the Forum. We've got some pretty sharp members that have been around the block several times and have been to more than just a few rodeos.

And to be honest, though I would hate to admit it, I probably would not start counting. Of course, I would be wrong.

Still being honest, even if a defender flicked (no control) the ball into the backcourt, I'm not 100% sure that I would start counting until an offensive player touched it. Again, I would be wrong.

At least I would get these situations correct on a written test. That has to count for something. Right?

bbcowboy Mon May 13, 2019 01:28pm

Yes, in both scenarios,
the ball bounces back into his hand.

BillyMac Mon May 13, 2019 01:44pm

Backcourt ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcowboy (Post 1032747)
Yes, in both scenarios, the ball bounces back into his hand.

Why didn't you say so earlier?

Backcourt violations.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Cv_bsCF5aB...c/s640/YDS.jpg


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