The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #46 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 15, 2019, 02:59pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,774
Touch ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
So if I'm holding the ball in the front court I can step on the division line? (Based on you totally overthinking the rule, you are saying that a player can legally do this)
Never said that.

9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #47 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 15, 2019, 03:01pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 13,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Never said that.

9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.
What part of 9-9-1 doesn't apply to a player who is dribbling as opposed to a player holding the ball? 4-12-1 tells us there is no difference as to the ball's status. You even posted it yourself. So, as usual, you are arguing with yourself and making contradictory assertions.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR

Last edited by Raymond; Wed May 15, 2019 at 03:03pm.
Reply With Quote
  #48 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 15, 2019, 03:02pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,774
Holding, Dribbling ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I'll sit here and wait while you explain why a player with FC status holding the ball is any different than a player with FC status dribbling the ball ...
Because while both have player control, one is holding the ball, and one is dribbling the ball. And player control is not written into the backcourt rule.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #49 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 15, 2019, 03:06pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 13,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Because while both have player control, one is holding the ball, and one is dribbling the ball. And player control is not written into the backcourt rule.
Based on your new interpretation of the BC rule, a player who is dribbling while having FC status can step into the backcourt between each bat of the ball.

Cool interp Bro.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR

Last edited by Raymond; Wed May 15, 2019 at 03:09pm.
Reply With Quote
  #50 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 15, 2019, 03:07pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,774
Purpose And Intent ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
4-12-1 tells us there is no difference as to the ball's status.
The ball's status as in player control? Yes. But player control isn't mentioned in the backcourt rule (as written).

We need something additional to complete the interpretation, 4-4-1, or 9-3-1-Note, or purpose and intent.

I'll settle for purpose and intent, but would prefer 4-4-1, or 9-3-1-Note.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #51 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 15, 2019, 03:09pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,774
Player Control ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
What part of 9-9-1 doesn't apply? I'm waiting.
Doesn't apply to what? Sorry, not sure I understand your question other than to restate that player control is not written into the backcourt rule.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #52 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 15, 2019, 03:12pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 13,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Doesn't apply to what? Sorry, not sure I understand your question other than to restate that player control is not written into the backcourt rule.
What part of player who is dribbling the ball and steps into the back court doesn't meet the requirements of 9-9-1?
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #53 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 15, 2019, 03:14pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 13,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
The ball's status as in player control? Yes. But player control isn't mentioned in the backcourt rule (as written).

We need something additional to complete the interpretation, 4-4-1, or 9-3-1-Note, or purpose and intent.

I'll settle for purpose and intent, but would prefer 4-4-1, or 9-3-1-Note.
4-4-1 is written to give the ball FC/BC status while in contact with a player who doesn't have PC. Irrelevant to this conversation.

9-9-1 is all that is needed.

A player who is dribbling is contact with the ball by RULEBOOK definition. Leave the Webster definition out of the conversation.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR

Last edited by Raymond; Wed May 15, 2019 at 03:17pm.
Reply With Quote
  #54 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 15, 2019, 03:24pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,774
Boundary ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
9-9-1 is all that is needed.
9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after ...

The ball has to be touched.

Not dribbled (which often doesn't involve touching).

Not player control (which often involves dribbling).

9-3-1-Note is great (a player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds. The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds) but while it mentions boundary lines (like the division line) it also specifically mentions out of bounds violations.

Purpose and intent?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #55 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 15, 2019, 03:25pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,774
Definitions ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Leave the Webster definition out of the conversation.
I believe that all my definitions have been NFHS definitions.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #56 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 15, 2019, 03:30pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 13,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after ...

The ball has to be touched.

Not dribbled (which often doesn't involve touching).

Not player control (which often involves dribbling).

9-3-1-Note is great (a player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds. The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds) but while it mentions boundary lines (like the division line) it also specifically mentions out of bounds violations.

Purpose and intent?
4-12-1 tells us there is no difference between holding and dribbling. You cited it then ignored it. TYPICAL

Like I said, in your games a player can dribble while jumping back forth over the division line.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #57 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 15, 2019, 03:42pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,774
Purpose And Intent ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
4-12-1 tells us there is no difference between holding and dribbling.
No it doesn't. Never did. Never said it.

4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

Holding is holding. Dribbling is dribbling. If a player is doing either one of these two completely different things, he has player control.

A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after ...

The ball has to be touched.

Not dribbled (which often doesn't involve touching).

Not player control (which often involves dribbling, dribbling that often doesn't involve touching).

The rule isn't, "A player shall not be the first in control of the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

The ball has to be touched.

9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

We may not call it that literal way because we use 9-3-1-Note, or purpose and intent.

Without 9-3-1-Note a dribbler stepping on an out of bounds boundary wouldn't be out of bounds.

9-3-1-Note: A player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds. The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds.

We need something like 9-3-1-Note for a dribbler stepping on a division line boundary on a backcourt violation.

Or just purpose and intent.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed May 15, 2019 at 03:58pm.
Reply With Quote
  #58 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 15, 2019, 04:02pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 13,369
If a player has PC, his status determines the ball's status. If he steps into the BC, the ball has BC status. That philosophy is covered in the 3-point dribbling rule when advancing the ball into the FC. The ball still has BC status in between batting of the ball b/c the PLAYER WHO IS IN POSSESSION (THE DRIBBLER) still has BC status.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #59 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 15, 2019, 06:03pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,774
Status ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
If a player has PC, his status determines the ball's status.
4-4-1: A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in
the backcourt if either the ball or the player ... is touching the backcourt.


The rule doesn't say that. There's nothing about player control in 4-4-1. "In contact" doesn't always, or necessarily, mean player control.

A ball in contact with the player means just that, the ball is contacting (touching) the player.

Back to basics.

9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

The ball has to be touched.

Not dribbled (which often doesn't involve touching).

Not player control (which often involves dribbling, dribbling that often doesn't involve touching).

The rule isn't, "A player shall not be the first in control of the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt".

"While in player control, a ball handler, or dribbler, must not step into the backcourt", would be nice, but it's not the rule.

There must be a note, an exception, another rule, an interpretation, a rule intent, or something else that directs officials to make a backcourt violation call when a dribbler in the frontcourt puts a foot into the backcourt even though the dribbler isn't touching the ball at the time.

In the specific situation we're discussing, 9-9-1, alone, as written, won't do the job.

Something else is needed.

Other than purpose and intent, I can't find it. 9-3-1-Note comes close, but it's only specifically about out of bounds.

9-3-1-Note: A player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds. The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds.

I hope that you find a citation. I'm enjoying the discussion. Closure would be nice. It's not a contest about who's smarter (you are) it's about figuring this out by what's in the rulebook, assuming that it's there (and not another NFHS oversight).

There's no way I'm calling this any other way than the way both of us have been calling this for many years, it's a backcourt violation when a dribbler in the frontcourt puts a foot into the backcourt even though the dribbler isn't touching the ball at the time.

If we were to pass on this call, even the most mild mannered coach in the world would find himself sitting on a cold bus out in the parking lot, or sitting in a locker room surrounded by smelly, sweaty socks.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri May 17, 2019 at 09:15am.
Reply With Quote
  #60 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 25, 2019, 12:00pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,774
Help ...

Both Raymond and I seem to agree that it's a backcourt violation when a dribbler in the frontcourt puts a foot into the backcourt even though the dribbler isn't touching the ball at the time.

He believes that 9-9-1, as written, alone, fully supports our interpretation.

I believe that 9-9-1, as written, does not, alone (based on the phrase "touch the ball"), fully support our interpretation. There must be a note, an exception, another rule, an interpretation, or a rule intent, to fully support our interpretation.

We've both spent considerable scholarly effort trying to support our side of the issue.

I've noticed that other Forum members have been quite hesitant to join the debate (it's been ten days).

Is it because Forum members believe that, like a few other NFHS rule interpretations, there is a "hole" in the rules, something is definitively missing, and, with no closure possible, members have decided to stay out of the debate?

Or, is it because Forum members believe that both Raymond and I have incorrectly interpreted 9-9-1, that it really isn't a backcourt violation when a dribbler in the frontcourt puts a foot into the backcourt when the dribbler isn't touching the ball at the time (I seriously doubt this)?

Or nobody else cares?

I'm considering sending this issue up the IAABO chain of command to get a definitive answer, but would rather exhaust all possible resources here on the Forum first.

Can any other Forum members please weigh in on this issue (if you just don't care, that's fine)?

For example, should 9-3-1-Note (A player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds. The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds), by purpose and intent, be extended to include all boundaries (like the division line), and not just be confined to out of bounds boundary lines (as written)?

Could it be that simple?

That (purpose and intent) would certainly satisfy me. I've been using 9-3-1-Note to make this dribbler backcourt call for almost forty years, and only recently discovered that 9-3-1-Note seems to only specifically apply to out of bounds violations (as written).
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sat May 25, 2019 at 12:56pm.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Backcourt violation? luvhoops Basketball 32 Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:11am
Backcourt violation or not??? splitveer Basketball 12 Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:01am
Backcourt Violation?? WhistlesAndStripes Basketball 6 Sat Feb 06, 2010 05:20pm
10/8 second backcourt violation furlu55 Basketball 3 Tue Mar 10, 2009 05:41am
Backcourt Violation? williebfree Basketball 39 Thu Feb 10, 2005 05:21pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:15am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1