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Valid Point ...
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https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1032772
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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A-hole formerly known as BNR Last edited by Raymond; Wed May 15, 2019 at 10:55am. |
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"Or", Not "And" ...
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But there's not a lot about player control in the backcourt rule (some, but not a lot that may be relevant), but there is a little bit more about touching in the rule. Note: This is the commonly accepted Forum definition, not the NFHS definition: The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control (and initial player control when coming from a throw-in); the ball must have achieved frontcourt status; the team in team control must be the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt; that same team must be the first to touch after the ball has been in the backcourt. NFHS 9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt. I think that I possibly found a better citation: 4-4-1: A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player (either player if the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt. It states "or", not "and", so while 9-3-1-Note may only apply to out of bounds, not backcourt, 4-4-1 does most certainly apply to backcourt, so a dribbling player does not have to have his hand in contact with the ball for a backcourt violation to be called in Situation #2. I never check for the hand in contact with the ball when a dribbler touches the division line with his foot in this situation, I just sound my whistle for the backcourt violation and move on. Been doing it that way for almost forty years, thinking I was doing it because of 9-3-1-Note, or purpose and intent. I guess that my interpretation, that I believe to be correct, is based on 4-4-1, not the other citations. I'm not 100% sure, so would appreciate further discussion (with citations).
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Wed May 15, 2019 at 12:06pm. |
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Interrupted Dribble ...
Quote:
4-15-5: An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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So I guess in your world if a player pushes off with his off hand in between dribbles it is not a player control foul since he's not touching the ball at that exact moment. I guess he gains and losses player control every time he bats the ball to the floor.
You type so much irrelevant information you lose yourself and forget what the original play was. A player is dribbling in the front court. In between bats of the ball he steps on the division line. How is it not a backcourt violation since he has continuous player control? Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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A-hole formerly known as BNR Last edited by Raymond; Wed May 15, 2019 at 12:47pm. |
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Quote:
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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Not Sure ...
Quote:
9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt. 4-4-1: A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player (either player if the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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Momentarily Get Away From Him ...
I'm sure that you do, just wanted to clean your post up a little so others know that there are other ways for a dribble to become interrupted without necessarily contacting a player's body part other than his hands. Other examples include the ball deflecting (uncontrolled) off of his hands (judgment call), or the ball momentarily getting away from him.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Wed May 15, 2019 at 02:03pm. |
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Holding Or Dribbling ...
Quote:
4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball. 4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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4-4-1 accounts for players who DO NOT HAVE PLAYER CONTROL/POSSESSION. A player who has PC meets all conditions of 9-9-1. He stepped into the back court while in possession of the ball. It is irrelevant if he does so while actually batting the ball or in between bats. Quit using dictionary definitions. PC equals touching the ball whether there is contact or not with the ball.
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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Quote:
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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Player Control ...
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9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt. No mention of player control in the rule (other then needing player control to establish team control). 4-4-1 seems to be say that if either the ball or the player touches backcourt it's the same as if both touched the backcourt. 4-4-1: A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player is touching the backcourt. I'm still not certain, and I'm still looking for relevant citations. Maybe 9-3-1-Note (A player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds. The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds) is the correct citation?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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Touching ...
Quote:
"While in player control, a ball handler, or dribbler, must not step into the backcourt", would be nice, but it's not the rule. That's the way I call it every time, but it's not the rule. We need to throw in 4-4-1, or 9-3-1-Note, or purpose and intent, or something else I'm missing, to complete the rule interpretation.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Wed May 15, 2019 at 02:54pm. |
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Quote:
How is that any different than stepping on the division line while dribbling the ball in the front court. To quote another post: 4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.
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A-hole formerly known as BNR Last edited by Raymond; Wed May 15, 2019 at 02:53pm. |
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I'll sit here and wait while you explain why a player with FC status holding the ball is any different than a player with FC status dribbling the ball or how 9-9-1 doesn't apply.
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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