T Time Saturday - Help me here

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by bucky

Point is, once the player has been ejected/DQ'd or whatever term you want to use, it is no longer in your hands.

So by this logic, say you DQ a player for a 5th foul. Then he calls you an expletive on his way off the court. Is it no longer in your hands to award an unsporting technical because it would be his 6th?

There is a case play that precisely allows you to grant this sixth foul. To me, it therefore follows that there is no prohibition against fouls (technical and/or personal) above the DQ threshold.

I agree with BillyMac....rapid fire Ts are not desirable, but an additional T for an additional specific unsporting act as in the OP cannot be ignored and should be penalized.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

... lobbed the ball towards the ref who was not looking. The ball hit him directly in the back of the head and the ref went down ...

Not always an automatic technical foul, need some context and intent to decide.

I've had players toss me the ball thinking I was paying attention when I was actually concentrating on something else and I've been hit with the ball, and I've seen the same thing happen to partners, and in games I was observing.

(I've also tossed the ball to my partner and had a player cross the path of the ball and get hit with that ball.)

Yeah, it's probably T-worthy, but it could also just be an accident, wrong place, wrong time, no intent of unsporting conduct, or harm.

(I've also hit a player in the face while looking at the table for the possession arrow direction and pointing the direction without looking where I was pointing. Ouch. Not my finest hour.)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by sdoebler

Sorry, just player techs

Don't forget substitutes and bench personnel. And you probably want to throw in coaches too?

[bucky]

You are reaching. This (OP) is about 2 T's on a play resulting in an exit from the game. It is not about some idle comment after a 5th foul or any of the other cases that have been proposed. Stop reaching. And please do not use "If they commit an infraction of the rules, penalize it." as my tag line explains that garbage. Some indicate to give a 3rd T but yet do not give multiple consecutively. Wow, hypocrite city. Rules/case book provide the information. I have neither heard nor seen anyone give a third T unless they were going against the rule/case books. I will probably see that when, in the same game, multiple fouls are called on the same play, lol. BM, why ask for citations when they were already provided? The rule book tells us what to do regarding ejections and the case book gives plenty of guidance regarding the game becoming unmanageable. Remember also that this was a rec league so the level of oversight plummets.

I can see it now CC. You call 5th foul. Players swears at you. You call a T. Player swears at you again as they walk away from you. You call a T. Player swears at you again from a greater distance. You call a T. As player nears door to exit gym with trainer (player was injured during play), they swear at you again. You call a T. See where this is going? Come on, use common sense. How about this, adult rec league, player gets his nose completely shattered/broken on a play. The player drops 4 consecutive F bombs. You quickly blow your whistle 4 consecutive times forming the T signal with your hands and give the other team 8 FT's. Lol, would love to see that. Yes, these are extreme examples, but so are the cases being provided. Use common sense and don't ever throw literal rules at all situations. Use rule 2-3 in a sound manner to cover the ultra rare plays that happen once in a lifetime. And we all ignore plenty of actions/rules so do not use the argument that an action/rule can't be ignored.

Come on CR, any further action is not "ignored", it is just handled by a different authority.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

You call 5th foul. Players swears at you. You call a T. Player swears at you again as they walk away from you. You call a T. Player swears at you again from a greater distance. You call a T. As player nears door to exit gym with trainer (player was injured during play), they swear at you again. You call a T. See where this is going?

First period. A1 taunts B1. First technical foul. Second period. A1 swears at official. Second technical foul and disqualified to the bench. Third period. A1, on bench, stands and loudly complains about a call. Third technical foul, coach sits, and a discussion ensues with the head coach about a possible "ejection" of A1 to the locker room with adult supervision in lieu of a possible forfeit.

The NFHS doesn't say that I can't charge a third technical foul to A1.

Originally Posted by bucky

... adult rec league, player gets his nose completely shattered/broken on a play. The player drops 4 consecutive F bombs.

If he's not swearing at me, and not swearing at an opponent, and is just in a lot of pain, the f-bomb can be ignored. In this case, all four f-bombs can be ignored.

If he is swearing at me, or is swearing at an opponent, four rapid fire f-bombs in a row will get him only one (not four) technical foul (probably flagrant). After I report the technical foul to the table, and after the player with the broken nose has a few seconds to compose himself (having time to process that he just got penalized for the first tirade), if he swears at me (or an opponent) again, I will charge him a second technical foul (even if the first one was flagrant).

[rsl]

I have given a 3rd T only once.

A player received two, and the league required DQ'd players to leave the venue. He returned ten minutes later to get something he forgot, stopped at the door on his way out the door the second time and yelled at me and my partner.

I didn't see the need to forfeit the game, so a third technical was appropriate, and I think it is allowed by rule.

I also agree with the other sentiment expressed here to avoid rapid fire technical fouls- they don't help and it is better to let things settle down. But, mine wasn't rapid fire. He came back after leaving.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rsl

I have given a 3rd T only once ... and I think it is allowed by rule.

And you'd be correct.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

First period. A1 taunts B1. First technical foul. Second period. A1 swears at official. Second technical foul and disqualified to the bench. Third period. A1, on bench, stands and loudly complains about a call. Third technical foul, coach sits, and a discussion ensues with the head coach about a possible "ejection" of A1 to the locker room with adult supervision in lieu of a possible forfeit.

The NFHS doesn't say that I can't charge a third technical foul to A1.

If he's not swearing at me, and not swearing at an opponent, and is just in a lot of pain, the f-bomb can be ignored. In this case, all four f-bombs can be ignored.

If he is swearing at me, or is swearing at an opponent, four rapid fire f-bombs in a row will get him only one (not four) technical foul (probably flagrant). After I report the technical foul to the table, and after the player with the broken nose has a few seconds to compose himself (having time to process that he just got penalized for the first tirade), if he swears at me (or an opponent) again, I will charge him a second technical foul (even if the first one was flagrant).

You (plural) keep coming up with scenarios other than the OP. Whatever it takes to fit "your" situation. If, for your last case, I was the official, I would have him removed after the second T. Or, ignore the complaint, after all who cares about that in a rec league. It should be common that you would not even hear the player, lol. Or, If you allow him to stay on bench and feel the need to give a T, just issue a bench technical and then have player removed. Or, just have him removed. Diffuse and avoid making it worse.

Not sure why four in a row would not require you to give 4 T's. How much time do you allow between actions? Clearly, it is your discretion, which is exactly what is available to everyone. What if they were 11 F bombs at you in complete succession? Gonna rattle off the T signal with your hands 11 quick times when he is done? Pfft, nah, then you would be making the travesty. I am not believing that you would ignore a player swearing loudly out of anger/frustration. Not buying that you would allow players to continuously swear out loud an entire game just because it is not at you/opponent. Not even close to making that purchase.

I am done on this one. However, for those that are on the bubble, trust me, do not issue more than 2 technicals on a player as described in the OP. Let the player make headlines, not you.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

You are reaching. This (OP) is about 2 T's on a play resulting in an exit from the game. It is not about some idle comment after a 5th foul or any of the other cases that have been proposed. Stop reaching. And please do not use "If they commit an infraction of the rules, penalize it." as my tag line explains that garbage. Some indicate to give a 3rd T but yet do not give multiple consecutively. Wow, hypocrite city. Rules/case book provide the information. I have neither heard nor seen anyone give a third T unless they were going against the rule/case books. I will probably see that when, in the same game, multiple fouls are called on the same play, lol. BM, why ask for citations when they were already provided? The rule book tells us what to do regarding ejections and the case book gives plenty of guidance regarding the game becoming unmanageable. Remember also that this was a rec league so the level of oversight plummets.

I can see it now CC. You call 5th foul. Players swears at you. You call a T. Player swears at you again as they walk away from you. You call a T. Player swears at you again from a greater distance. You call a T. As player nears door to exit gym with trainer (player was injured during play), they swear at you again. You call a T. See where this is going? Come on, use common sense. How about this, adult rec league, player gets his nose completely shattered/broken on a play. The player drops 4 consecutive F bombs. You quickly blow your whistle 4 consecutive times forming the T signal with your hands and give the other team 8 FT's. Lol, would love to see that. Yes, these are extreme examples, but so are the cases being provided. Use common sense and don't ever throw literal rules at all situations. Use rule 2-3 in a sound manner to cover the ultra rare plays that happen once in a lifetime. And we all ignore plenty of actions/rules so do not use the argument that an action/rule can't be ignored.

Come on CR, any further action is not "ignored", it is just handled by a different authority.

Quit making stuff up.

If you have ANYTHING in the rule or case book that backs up your claim even remotely, I've love to see a citation rather than a bunch of rambling hot air.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Quit making stuff up.

If you have ANYTHING in the rule or case book that backs up your claim even remotely, I've love to see a citation rather than a bunch of rambling hot air.

Now you've done it. Here come another 1000 words.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

What if they were 11 F bombs at you in complete succession? Gonna rattle off the T signal with your hands 11 quick times when he is done?

I don't count expletives. A player calling me a "f**k**g a**h**e" doesn't get a technical foul for each expletive word. I don't believe that that's the purpose and intent of the unsporting rule.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm not going to fire away with technicals like a machine gun, but I'm not automatically stopping at two.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If he is swearing at me ... four rapid fire f-bombs in a row will get him only one (not four) technical foul (probably flagrant). After I report the technical foul to the table, and after the player with the broken nose has a few seconds to compose himself (having time to process that he just got penalized for the first tirade), if he swears at me ... again, I will charge him a second technical foul (even if the first one was flagrant).

Originally Posted by bucky

I am not believing that you would ignore a player swearing loudly out of anger/frustration. Not buying that you would allow players to continuously swear out loud an entire game just because it is not at you/opponent.

Never said anger/frustration (that, at minimum, would lead to a discussion with said player), I was describing an extreme injury situation. I seldom use the f-word, it's how I was brought up in my Irish Catholic family with a Lutheran raised mother, where my brother and I weren't even allowed to utter "Shut up" to each other, and where I once repeated a friend's curse using the f-word and got my mouth washed out with soap. Never once heard either my father or my mother ever use any curse word. Never. Not even once. Not even a "damn".

That being said, if I were to receive a blow to the face that resulted in a broken nose, or dropped a gigantic rock on my foot, or fell on some ice and broke a leg, I can assure you that the f-word would probably come rolling out of my mouth.

But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, he that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. (John 8:7)

(Note: I once confessed to my pastor that while stuck in my every day horrible traffic commute, that I would occasionally use the f-word and the word "God" in the same sentence. After asking where my commute took place, he said that it was completely understandable. No penance, but he suggested that whenever such a situation occurred, rather than swear, instead I should say a prayer that the other driver gets home safely. I followed his advice never swore again in traffic, said a few prayers, and had much more enjoyable commutes with a much lower blood pressure. My pastor is a wise man.)

[deecee]

Originally Posted by bucky

You are reaching.....

I have done it a couple times. Once tourney and once varsity. If a coach fails to get his kid in order and the kid refuses to act with some form of civility here come some more T's. In both cases the coach had an assistant or whomever usher the kid out of the gym (smart on the coach). Not only do the rules support this, but I was never paid enough to put up with that level of excrement.