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-   -   T Time Saturday - Help me here (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104427-t-time-saturday-help-me-here.html)

RefsNCoaches Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:04am

T Time Saturday - Help me here
 
Sitch from this weekend HS Rec League...Partner had players involved in some unsporting behavior (jack jawing and going chest to chest) ...he felt warranted double Ts in the first half.

At the end of the game, up 3, one of those players involved picked up a PF on and "and one" and didn't like the fact that the offensive player who scored reacted by being excited and decided he needed to get in that players face earning his 2nd T from me.

So he's done for the day. Now prior to leaving the floor, he slams the ball down and picks up his 3rd Technical from my partner. So his team went from up 3 to down 4 as they converted the bonus first and knocked down all 4 FTs for the 2-Ts.

So, when he was disqualified after the 2nd T and gets the 3rd T... Given he's now disqualified and not leaving the floor...if he had continued on his tirade, would/could you hit him with additional Ts at that point or?

Does the fact he already had 2 Ts and got the 3rd ...is there any special handling of a situation like that? I can't recall ever giving 3Ts to one player...had 2 plenty of times but this was a first for me.

JRutledge Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:21am

Not sure what you mean by a special situation. You let the coach handle it. then you get the players to shoot the FTs and continue the game. Not much you can do beyond that. Now if the player does not leave the floor (they can stay on the bench if they are causing no problems), then you could consider forfeiture, but that would be extreme.

I do not know what is the administrative point of view for a rec game, so that might be a little different as to where or if they go.

Peace

crosscountry55 Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:21am

Thoughts:

1. Was the coach notified of the DQ prior to the 3rd T? If so, itís a bench T and the coach sits. Still an additional T charged to that team member (not that that makes much difference at this point), but indirect to the coach as well.

2. I donít think thereís anything that prevents the third T from being called, and certainly it was warranted. However, piling on indefinitely after this would make a travesty of the game. So at this point I think there are three possible outcomes:

a. You provide a little slack, work with the coach if he/she is cooperative, and the player calms down and sits. Continue on with the game.

b. Eject the player with adult supervision. This sounds like one of those rare cases where that may be necessary. Ensure the supervision is aware of the importance of that task for liability purposes.

c. If the player refuses to comply with ejection, this constitutes a failure to comply with a technical foul penalty, and if the coach canít control the situation (which is quite possible in a HS rec league), then declare a forfeit.

Of course after the game, call and report to the assignor as soon as possible.


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RefsNCoaches Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:34am

The time between 2nd and 3rd Ts was maybe 10 seconds so coach hadn't been notified just yet. He's a long time coach in this league (as am I from the officiating side of things) and he was as calm and cool as you could be about it.

As for piling on the Ts...I don't think that was the case here...this kid had taken issue with a PF committed against him early in Q1 where he got knocked down and he got up a little chippy about it....we talked to him and told him to calm down...then a little later is when he picked up his first T.

JRut ...our question was just surrounding him being disqualified and acting like a tool picking up the 3rd T. If he's still on the floor at the time that 3rd T is whistled, he's not a participant at that point due to the 2nd so just questioning administration of the penalty. I think we handled it properly as there was no not giving that 3rd T for slamming the ball down and it bouncing about 10' in the air.

So not only did that cost his team that game but now the hot head has to sit next weekend and it's the first weekend of their tournament (single elim) :p

bucky Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:19pm

3rd T? Unless you have some sort of league specific rules, there is no such thing. After second T, wait for him to leave gym, then shoot FT's, and continue game. If he refuses to leave gym, just forfeit game.

RefsNCoaches Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1030838)
3rd T? Unless you have some sort of league specific rules, there is no such thing. After second T, wait for him to leave gym, then shoot FT's, and continue game. If he refuses to leave gym, just forfeit game.

That is in part why I asked too. I've never had that situation. Would you let the slamming of the ball down after the 2nd technical go? The entire gym saw it....

SC Official Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1030838)
3rd T? Unless you have some sort of league specific rules, there is no such thing. After second T, wait for him to leave gym, then shoot FT's, and continue game. If he refuses to leave gym, just forfeit game.

Rules reference?

RefsNCoaches Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1030840)
Rules reference?

Having been a part of this league for 19 seasons...I know what their board of directors wants in terms of behavior from coaches and players but no, nothing in the "house rules" ...but we got no argument from coach, the Commissioner of that particular league or the league President who happened to be at this site that day (they play in 3-4 different locations).

Appreciate you guys chiming in...always a good learning environment here! :cool:

deecee Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1030838)
3rd T? Unless you have some sort of league specific rules, there is no such thing. After second T, wait for him to leave gym, then shoot FT's, and continue game. If he refuses to leave gym, just forfeit game.

This is wrong.....there is no limit to how many T's you can give someone. Unless something has changed recently. The only difference is after DQ, the coach is also getting indirects.

frezer11 Mon Mar 04, 2019 01:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1030838)
3rd T? Unless you have some sort of league specific rules, there is no such thing. After second T, wait for him to leave gym, then shoot FT's, and continue game. If he refuses to leave gym, just forfeit game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 1030843)
This is wrong.....there is no limit to how many T's you can give someone. Unless something has changed recently. The only difference is after DQ, the coach is also getting indirects.

Also, as was mentioned earlier, they are not required to leave the floor. If their continued presence will inevitably cause a problem, you can send them with adult personnel to the locker room, but there isn't a requirement for them to leave.

Raymond Mon Mar 04, 2019 01:50pm

Around here players have a certain amount of time to vacate the confines of the gym (or get to the bench if children) when they get ejected. After that, it is a forfeit and I'm sure some type of suspension or banishment from that particular league.

BillyMac Mon Mar 04, 2019 02:08pm

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 
5-4-1: The referee shall forfeit the game if a team refuses to play after
being instructed to do so by any official. The referee may also forfeit a
game if any player, team member, bench personnel or coach fails to comply
with any technical-foul penalty, or repeatedly commits technical-foul
infractions or other acts which make a travesty of the game. If the team to
which the game is forfeited is ahead, the score at the time of forfeiture shall
stand. If this team is not ahead, the score shall be recorded as 2-0 in its
favor.

5.4.1 SITUATION A COMMENT: The referee may forfeit a game if any player, team member, bench personnel or coach fails to comply with any technical foul penalty.

Altor Mon Mar 04, 2019 02:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1030845)
Around here players have a certain amount of time to vacate the confines of the gym (or get to the bench if children) when they get ejected.

Does a second (or even third) technical foul charged to a player automatically warrant an ejection?

deecee Mon Mar 04, 2019 02:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altor (Post 1030848)
Does a second (or even third) technical foul charged to a player automatically warrant an ejection?

2 direct T's result in a DQ. In HS all T's are direct, except for T's against bench personnel which also result in an indirect on the coach. 2 directs or any combination of 3 direct & indirect T's result in a DQ for the coach.

Raymond Mon Mar 04, 2019 02:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altor (Post 1030848)
Does a second (or even third) technical foul charged to a player automatically warrant an ejection?

In every venue I work it does.


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